Low-output wood body Grado cartridges: Still get hum?

[Mr. Lin]

I'm just curious because I'm considering trying a Statement Sonata with .5mV output, but there's been a bit of the Grado hum in the past when I've used my Reference Platinum and Silver on my Pro-Ject turntable. I thought I'd read in a recent thread that an AKer was using the low-output Sonata and no longer had any hum, but I can't find it now. Let me know if any of you have any experience with this.

Dave

 

[Trower]

Not that this will help you much, but I'm pretty sure it was someone putting it on an old Rega P3, which are known to hum with grado's. Or it could have been the fellow who got a deal on an older project with a vintage MC on it and upgraded to a low output Woodie.

 

[Trower]

If I remember right it was Puma...something who had the P3, maybe I'll have to do some searching

 

[Mr. Lin]

And he said there was no longer hum with the low-output Sonata, right? Or maybe I'm not remembering this correctly. Puma was that you?

 

[Trower]

It was not Puma it was CMB3366, he mounted it on his older Project table that has an A/C syncronus right under the platter....Heres the link post #22

 

[Mr. Lin]

It was not Puma it was CMB3366, he mounted it on his older Project table that has an A/C syncronus right under the platter....Heres the link post #22

Thanks Trower, that's what I was thinking of. I hope he'll see this thread and let me know if he'd previously used a different high-output Grado and experienced hum prior to getting the Statement Sonata.

 

[cmb3366]

My analog setup, as currently configured does not hum, not even in the slightest. It also sounds pretty damn good .


I bought my Grado in the low output Sonata variation (mine is a 1.5mV) on the recommendation of my dealer. I was interested in a regular Platinum, but he was pretty adament that I go low output when he discovered it would be going on an A.C. Pro-ject. He is a big Linn Soundek fan, and a Rega Dealer, but also loves the Grado sound. He also hates hum and noise almost as much as I do. His personally prefered way of getting around the Grado hum issue is going with the low output models, and he advised I try the same. Further research \i conducted revealed that Grado originally developed the 1.5mV models to go on VPI tables, due to hum issues; in other words, my dealer's story checked out.

Taking his suggestion to heart, I had mount one on my tonearm, and I tried it in his store on his demo rig, and it was dead silent, and sounded fantastic (he positioned the table on shelf near the floor, insight on the implications of this later). I was impressed enough that I took it home for an in-house audition, and it was nearly silent and hum free, I liked it, and I felt I could live with the negligible amount of hum present at high volume, so I bought it.

About a month later, that negligible amount of hum started to grate on me, so I set about to correct it. Long story short, the A/C motor had nothing to do with it, but RF inteference generated by the transformers and other electronics in my McIntosh did, and an improperly matched phono stage with too low a gain, which forced me to lean on my preamp for volume, only made matters worse.

After some experimentation showed that that placement of my TT was my main problem, I got my table away from my amplifier. I also finally broke down and purchased a suitable phono stage; now things are rosey, my table is silent, and I do mean dead silent, no hum, even if you crank on it, nothing. Sounds nice too :yes:.

A picture is worth a thousand words (even a bad picture of an unkempt listening room/bedroom as it may be in this case:scratch2. Once I moved my table away from the amp (where the NG is now) and drove it with my Monolithic, things got truly silent.

One thing to note in the Phonostage department. These low-output Grados are an odd duck in that they need high gain, and 47Kohm loading to sound their best, and they are a good enough cart to be held back by your run of the mill integrated phono stages. Be prepared to spend some dough on a suitable phonostage, and you will be rewarded with great clean sound.

Let me know if this helps, or if there is anything else you would like to know.

 

[cmb3366]

Figured this might help to illustrate my setup, the motor in relation to the tonearm as it would be positioned in the leadout groove. Even this close to running the motor I do not get hum.

 

[Mr. Lin]

Alright then, thank you so much for all that info and the pictures. The motor/tonearm placement is exactly the same on my Pro-Ject.

I think I'm going to go for it. I've missed my Platinum lately, even though it's been replaced by a Glider, which is an incredible cartridge. But the Platinum hummed and, much worse, I just couldn't get it to where there wasn't an unacceptable amount of harsh sibilance on records where there should be none. Based on what I've heard about the Sonata, over and over again, it seems like I can't go wrong. I plan to get the .5mV version.

You answered my question very well, thanks.

 

[ChairSpud]

Dave, I'm envious, the Sonata, especially the 0.5mV is supposed to be the sweet spot of Grado’s wood body line. So you’re in for a real treat but you already knew that! I was aware of the hum issue you dealt with but not the sibilance. I sincerely hope the Sonata fixes those issues for you.

 

[Mr. Lin]

Dave, I'm envious, the Sonata, especially the 0.5mV is supposed to be the sweet spot of Grado’s wood body line. So you’re in for a real treat but you already knew that! I was aware of the hum issue you dealt with but not the sibilance. I sincerely hope the Sonata fixes those issues for you.

I read several times that the Sonata is a better tracker than the Platinum, in fact, it's supposed to be considerably better at everything. Since, as you know, the Platinum was basically the only cartridge that blew my mind out of the box, this should indeed be a real treat.

 

[Puma Cat]

And he said there was no longer hum with the low-output Sonata, right? Or maybe I'm not remembering this correctly. Puma was that you?

You guys have a good memory, I do have a wood body Grado Sonata, but I have the high output 5 mV one; and I do have a little bit of hum at the end of a record, but it's not very much and I can never hear it when music is playing, so I don't worry about it.

-PC

 

[Puma Cat]

My analog setup, as currently configured does not hum, not even in the slightest. It also sounds pretty damn good .


I bought my Grado in the low output Sonata variation (mine is a 1.5mV) on the recommendation of my dealer. I was interested in a regular Platinum, but he was pretty adament that I go low output when he discovered it would be going on an A.C. Pro-ject. He is a big Linn Soundek fan, and a Rega Dealer, but also loves the Grado sound. He also hates hum and noise almost as much as I do. His personally prefered way of getting around the Grado hum issue is going with the low output models, and he advised I try the same. Further research \i conducted revealed that Grado originally developed the 1.5mV models to go on VPI tables, due to hum issues; in other words, my dealer's story checked out.

<SNIP>



One thing to note in the Phonostage department. These low-output Grados are an odd duck in that they need high gain, and 47Kohm loading to sound their best, and they are a good enough cart to be held back by your run of the mill integrated phono stages. Be prepared to spend some dough on a suitable phonostage, and you will be rewarded with great clean sound.

Let me know if this helps, or if there is anything else you would like to know.

Nice write-up, CMB. I do think that you are still helped by your 1.5mV Grado in the hum dept, though. I do have a little with mine, but my JoLida (which does have big, honkin' transformers) is not that close to my TT (2.5 ft or so...). I'm also using a Pro-Ject Tube Box II, which is a pretty good phono stage, as Mr Lin will substantiate....but not as good as his George Wright!

Bottom line is that I am not aware of the hum when I play records, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

[pbda]

I will be very interested to see how your experience with the low output Sonata works out. I have a high output Reference model on my LP12 and while I love the sound of the cartridge, I'm frustrated by the constant hum (which of course gets worse as the cartridge approaches the lead-out groove).

 

[pbda]

Public thanks to member cmb3366 for his post about moving his turntable away from other components. Idiot that I am, it never occurred to me that one of my other components could be causing hum...when I moved my tuner about 18 inches away from my turntable, the interference stopped. Apparently the tuner has a particularly "excitable" (or just poorly-shielded) transformer.

This still leaves me with the issue of the turntable motor hum. I got out my sheet of mu metal, cut it up and lined the underside of both the inner and outer platter of my LP12 (also cutting myself badly in the process; that mu metal is deadly stuff).

Turntable motor hum now reduced (but by no means eliminated), and "other component hum" is gone. The combination of mu and move does have an impact.

 

[cmb3366]

Public thanks to member cmb3366 for his post about moving his turntable away from other components. Idiot that I am, it never occurred to me that one of my other components could be causing hum....

I just about tore my hair out trying to figure my setup's hum issues out. I knew my TT and cart could be dead quiet from my audition at the dealer, I just couldent figure out what was different about my home setup... The tumblers fell into place one day when out of frustration I set my TT on my floor to play (I thought I might have vibration issues on my shelf) BINGO, noise was mostly gone; decent Phono Stage with proper gain to keep me out of the noise floor of my preamp a week later finished the deal.

I'm just happy my experience was able to help somone else save some time and headache. Good luck with the mumetal, but if all else fails, trade it in and go low output, theres no reason to put up with any hum in a TT when there are proper alternatives.

 

[Mr. Lin]

You guys have a good memory, I do have a wood body Grado Sonata, but I have the high output 5 mV one; and I do have a little bit of hum at the end of a record, but it's not very much and I can never hear it when music is playing, so I don't worry about it.

-PC

Funny the way that sound can so effectively push other things aside, isn't it?

 

[Mr. Lin]

I just about tore my hair out trying to figure my setup's hum issues out. I knew my TT and cart could be dead quiet from my audition at the dealer, I just couldent figure out what was different about my home setup... The tumblers fell into place one day when out of frustration I set my TT on my floor to play (I thought I might have vibration issues on my shelf) BINGO, noise was mostly gone; decent Phono Stage with proper gain to keep me out of the noise floor of my preamp a week later finished the deal.

I'm just happy my experience was able to help somone else save some time and headache. Good luck with the mumetal, but if all else fails, trade it in and go low output, theres no reason to put up with any hum in a TT when there are proper alternatives.

This is a good thing to bring up in this thread, and it's something I've experienced too. You have to keep in mind the possibility that there's much more to hum/noise in your system than one single component. For the longest time I blamed all my hum on the Platinum, and it's true the cartridge was responsible for a sizable part of it, but there was more to it. For one thing, as you guys have been talking about, my phono preamp was too close to my turntable. One of the biggest epiphanies was that the interconnects I was using from tt to phono preamp, though of very high quality and well-shielded, simply weren't capable of stopping all the pollution from contaminating the little signal coming from the cartridge. This was more than a few pairs, mind you. I've said it before, but it bears repeating, Grover phono IC's were the only ones that actually got rid of just about all the noise that was left.

I'd been so used to living with this background noise and hum while the Platinum was in use (which, like I said, I thought was all coming from that cartridge), and even a little hum and noise with the Dynavector (I figured there was a ground problem or that was just how the tube preamp is), it didn't occur to me that there should be no noise.

Now, after fixing all these problems, plus another recent upgrade I won't get into here, the only noise I can hear is some white noise when there's no music playing and I crank the volume up past normal listening levels. So when I'm listening to lps with the Glider setup right now, the background is BLACK. It's something I've never experienced before, and frankly that I thought I'd have to spend a lot more money to reach (the kind of black you're supposed to get with a good MC cartridge). It takes everything to a whole new level, that simple change.

Now I'm so hooked on the dead silent background that I'm concerned about losing some ground in that area by switching over to the Sonata. I put up with it before, but I don't know if I can go back.

 

[atariguy]

I have the Grado Statement Sonata on my Rega P3 and running through a Azur 640p and unfortunately still hear a slight hum when the cart gets near the center of the lp. I don't notice it when playing so I can live with it being the Sonata sounds so good.

 

[cmb3366]

One of the biggest epiphanies was that the interconnects I was using from tt to phono preamp......

.......Now I'm so hooked on the dead silent background that I'm concerned about losing some ground in that area by switching over to the Sonata. I put up with it before, but I don't know if I can go back.

I agree that interconnects and placement of non-TT components can be very important (you'll notice in my pictures that I went to some effort to isolate my Phono Stage from my amp, and preamp, as well as to seperate it's power conditioner/supply from the phonostage itself, every little bit adds up), expecially when dealing with the low voltage signals put out by turntable cartridges. I got a pair of Monster M1000 interconnects thrown in with my Monolithic, so thats what I use between TT and Pre, and they definatly dont hurt when it comes to protecting the signal from interference.

As far as the blacks of of MC are concerned, I completly agree. Before the Sonata, I had a G.A.S. MC that showed me how good a decent turntable could sound (I had used the better Audio Technica MM's before it). There is no experience with a turntable like hearing absolute, dead silence in a recording. I have found most recordings (most rock and other mass produced recordings) have a level of noise floor inherint to the pressing, but on Blue Note jazz, some MoFi and similar, that MC, and now the Sonata can and do leave me stunned at their ability to reproduce absolute silence.