LP Gear ViVid, Ortofon 2M Red, or maybe neither?

[VieuxRimbaud]

Hi. I'm new to the vintage turntable business and Audiokarma has been very helpful so far, so thanks in advance.

I’m driving a pair of AR TSW 210 speakers c1990 (refoamed. great speakers), and playing a JVC QL-A2 direct-drive turntable, c1978, through the built-in phono amp on a 60 watt Denon 5-channel solid-state receiver, also c1990. It’s all older low- to mid-level equipment, but it all seems to perform very well.

The turntable came with an empire 3000 I cartridge and I purchased the standard LP $33 elliptical replacement for it. I'm pretty happy with the sound actually, it's very realistic and has good presence, but the bass seems a little withdrawn and the highs a little reticent (although everything is perfectly clear at all frequencies). I had got used to the strong and punchy bass I was getting from listening to CDs. Is this normal when moving from CD to LP? So far I've only listened to smaller acoustic jazz ensembles with heavy sax in the foreground. The bass is rich and the cymbals are nice and open, but the balance definitely is definitely skewed in favor of the sax. The sidemen seem withdrawn, even on their solos. I need to buy and listen to more LPs of course, but:

There's been a lot of discussion about LP ViVid and the 2M Red, and they're about the same price range, but in the context of my equipment, I'm wondering if I should expect an audible enough improvement in sound to justify the added cost of the upgrade, and which of these two might give me better results. I would appreciate any thoughts.

 

[VieuxRimbaud]

Thanks for the information, and taking the time to reply. Oh, and the stylus has only about 3-4 hours of play time on it. My plan is to get to know this one's characteristics well, then try another LP Gear product I purchased as a backup in case the old Empire cartridge didn't function. Called the "Carbon Fidelity CF3600LE." A cheap but seemingly well-regarded cartridge for the money.

Empires have a classic 1970s sort of sound, not unlike Pickering--there's a lot of overlap in sound but to my ears Empires are a tad more controlled (but not always as I have a recent Empire LT280 P Mount that for $25 is about the BEST cartridge I've ever heard, quite honestly--maybe it's just a great match with my P Mount arm). They can be described as full-bodied.

In any case these, Empire, Pickering and others are praised for their midrange prominence, but they don't necessarily overemphasize midrange. In fact, a Pickering might be what you want as they offer silky mids, but also punchy bass and dynamics. I've had a lot of cartridges and Pickering is still at the top of the list whether moving magnet, moving iron, moving coil, etc. They're only available on the used market generally speaking, and they are usually inexpensive. Look for an XV-15.

BUT, my first question is: how long has the new $33 elliptical been in service? It's not uncommon for new styli to require a bit of a break in period of anywhere from 10 to 50 hours. I have a number of Empire cartridges and they don't seem so midrange focused that the rest of the FR (Frequency Response) suffers for it. They're pretty flat as far as I know, generally speaking.

In any case, I don't think a different stylus is going to dramatically change the FR or character of your set up. What it will do is bring out more detail and clarity, generally speaking--and improved tracking. If you want to change your FR or the character of your set up, you may want to try a Pickering XV-15, or if you want something with less midrange and more highs, an Audio-Technica.

I don't think the Ortofon 2M Red is the answer. Those don't, generally, receive a lot of praise. I'm not a big fan of mine. To my ears, it sounds very compressed, though I do need to try it with my new fluid damper on my arm.

For $35 or so, you'd be a lot better off with an Ortofon Omega, which is much smoother and more dynamic, with better imaging and space.

You may also want to try a Shure M97xE in that price range. High end is a little bit rolled off, but that makes it a very smooth cartridge. I don't hear any lack of detail. In fact, mine sounds very balanced and I like it a lot and it's an excellent tracker.

[/QUOTE]

 

[welcomdmat]

I believe the LP Gear Vivid Line is for the Shure M97xE -- or that is the only place I have used it.

If it is the Shure or the Ortofon -- they sound really different on different turntable. Capacitance gets mentioned a lot, but I have found the most important thing to know is that a change of capacitance will change the sound of a cartridge.

My second or third or eighteenth turntable was a brand new Technics 1200 MK2. I purchased an Ortofon 2M Red for it right away and thought it was pretty good. I continued down the path and had the tonearm rewired and the RCA cables replaced. Suddenly, the Ortofon sounded like I had cotton in my ears. I played around with other options and found some I liked; I spent solid amounts to find that I was not so interested.

Cartridges are fun to talk about, but you should really buy 3 modestly inexpensive ones to see how they sound instead on one expensive one.

There are cartridge wizards on this site, and they know what will sound good on their system. Some spend a lot, some don't. They all started out at the beginning.

 

[VieuxRimbaud]

I believe the LP Gear Vivid Line is for the Shure M97xE -- or that is the only place I have used it.

They have several versions of the Vivid line for different vintage cartridges apparently. The one I referred to was this:
https://www.lpgear.com/product/EMS0917VL.html

Cartridges are fun to talk about, but you should really buy 3 modestly inexpensive ones to see how they sound instead on one expensive one.

Ha-ha... yes that will be my strategy. Plus, I'm not sure about things like the relative quality of the built-in preamp on my receiver. Denon is (was?) usually regarded as being careful about quality, and this was built in the early CD era, but when many people still played LPs, so. . .

 

[welcomdmat]

Denon has made some great stuff -- cartridges among them.

 

[freQ(*)Oddio]

Thanks for the information, and taking the time to reply. Oh, and the stylus has only about 3-4 hours of play time on it. My plan is to get to know this one's characteristics well, then try another LP Gear product I purchased as a backup in case the old Empire cartridge didn't function. Called the "Carbon Fidelity CF3600LE." A cheap but seemingly well-regarded cartridge for the money.

[/QUOTE]
i think the 3600 carbon fidelity is a much nicer sounding cart than the ortofon 2m red, you have the lp carbon now at your place? Try the carbon seriously, you may stop searching for your sound after hearing it. you may have to add a little to the treble knob for it to match other carts, but thats fine, it is super clean on the highs, with a nice kick in the lower mids and bottom, nice choice.

 

[mjw21a]

I've go for a used Pickering XV-15 along with a Jico shibata stylus. Very hard to beat and holds it's own vs some very nice LOMC cartridges. Some prefer the XSV (I tried XSV3000 and XSP4004) though I still preferred the XV-15 625E to them. Sounded more refined with less bass emphasis.

 

[VieuxRimbaud]

Yes I do have it here, along with an extra headshell. Just waiting for the weekend to come to tinker with it... wife is out all day Saturday. ;-) Thanks for your reply.

i think the 3600 carbon fidelity is a much nicer sounding cart than the ortofon 2m red, you have the lp carbon now at your place? Try the carbon seriously, you may stop searching for your sound after hearing it. you may have to add a little to the treble knob for it to match other carts, but thats fine, it is super clean on the highs, with a nice kick in the lower mids and bottom, nice choice.

 

[VieuxRimbaud]

Quite a few people seem to like the XV-15... that will have to be next be next on my vintage list. Thanks for your reply.

I've go for a used Pickering XV-15 along with a Jico shibata stylus. Very hard to beat and holds it's own vs some very nice LOMC cartridges. Some prefer the XSV (I tried XSV3000 and XSP4004) though I still preferred the XV-15 625E to them. Sounded more refined with less bass emphasis.

 

[freQ(*)Oddio]

the xv 15 is my choice also if you are thinking of trying another. That one is on my table now, and always ends up back on no matter what gets tried out.

 

[bobins08]

It really is hard to recommend what to buy when not hearing your system and not knowing what you are looking for.

I think that the Vivid Line stylus for your Empire will sound much better than the one you have now but if the Empire house sound is not for you then in time you will be looking for something else.

Shure has a classic vintage sound with full driving bass. I never recommend the M97xE, but much prefer the M75/M91 and the V15-III. There are many good after market options for them too.

I like the older Ortofon OM series more than the current 2M and original stylus are still available for them.

I also like Nagaoka and the MP-110 has a nice balanced sound for entry level.

Good luck in enjoy your journey. It will take some listening and time. Your tastes will evolve too.

 

[VieuxRimbaud]

Thanks for your reply.

It really is hard to recommend what to buy when not hearing your system and not knowing what you are looking for.

I think that the Vivid Line stylus for your Empire will sound much better than the one you have now but if the Empire house sound is not for you then in time you will be looking for something else.

Shure has a classic vintage sound with full driving bass. I never recommend the M97xE, but much prefer the M75/M91 and the V15-III. There are many good after market options for them too.

I like the older Ortofon OM series more than the current 2M and original stylus are still available for them.

I also like Nagaoka and the MP-110 has a nice balanced sound for entry level.

Good luck in enjoy your journey. It will take some listening and time. Your tastes will evolve too.

 

[VieuxRimbaud]

I'm listening the the 3600 carbon now, and it IS indeed very nice! Exactly as you describe it. Wonderful detail in the strings. Very clean and well defined bass attack. I'm listening to Schubert's Trout quintet recorded in a hall, and I love the way I can hear the sound echo into the rafters and fade away. Wonderful presence. And amazing separation between the performers... The Empire was very warm and pleasant sounding, but It just wasn't capturing all of this. I can imagine the Empire sounding very nice on bigger speakers and a more powerful amp, but I don't think it matches up well with my equipment. So I think I HAVE found my sound, at least for a good long while. What a great deal at $35! And good for me especially, because I simply can't afford a high-price cartridge.

i think the 3600 carbon fidelity is a much nicer sounding cart than the ortofon 2m red, you have the lp carbon now at your place? Try the carbon seriously, you may stop searching for your sound after hearing it. you may have to add a little to the treble knob for it to match other carts, but thats fine, it is super clean on the highs, with a nice kick in the lower mids and bottom, nice choice.[/QUOTE]

 

[freQ(*)Oddio]

I'm listening the the 3600 carbon now, and it IS indeed very nice! Exactly as you describe it. Wonderful detail in the strings. Very clean and well defined bass attack. I'm listening to Schubert's Trout quintet recorded in a hall, and I love the way I can hear the sound echo into the rafters and fade away. Wonderful presence. And amazing separation between the performers... The Empire was very warm and pleasant sounding, but It just wasn't capturing all of this. I can imagine the Empire sounding very nice on bigger speakers and a more powerful amp, but I don't think it matches up well with my equipment. So I think I HAVE found my sound, at least for a good long while. What a great deal at $35! And good for me especially, because I simply can't afford a high-price cartridge.


i think the 3600 carbon fidelity is a much nicer sounding cart than the ortofon 2m red, you have the lp carbon now at your place? Try the carbon seriously, you may stop searching for your sound after hearing it. you may have to add a little to the treble knob for it to match other carts, but thats fine, it is super clean on the highs, with a nice kick in the lower mids and bottom, nice choice.

[/QUOTE]
Glad to hear it, you will have to spend a lot of money on a new combo, to improve on that sound, it is a freQ of a cart/ stylus, and price point

 

[VieuxRimbaud]

Now it's Bill Evans Trio live at Montreux. I can actually close my eyes hear that outdoor sound resonating in what is definitely wooden bandshell... it IS totally freaky. Vinyl is so wonderful.
Well... enough already.

Glad to hear it, you will have to spend a lot of money on a new combo, to improve on that sound, it is a freQ of a cart/ stylus, and price point [/QUOTE]

 

[freQ(*)Oddio]

Now it's Bill Evans Trio live at Montreux. I can actually close my eyes hear that outdoor sound resonating in what is definitely wooden bandshell... it IS totally freaky. Vinyl is so wonderful.
Well... enough already.


Glad to hear it, you will have to spend a lot of money on a new combo, to improve on that sound, it is a freQ of a cart/ stylus, and price point

[/QUOTE]
lol wait until it starts to settle in after a few weeks you will be in heaven. Just a suggestion, i was afraid of a discontinue of that stylus, so i ordered a few spares from lp gear, i would save up and order one spare at some point.....................but i have seen 3600 replacement stylus in white on ebay with a carbon fiber cantilever like yours also, but only $10-12 replacement, i am curious how that stylus compares and may order one. If it matches well, i will order a few of them also.

 

[VieuxRimbaud]

lol wait until it starts to settle in after a few weeks you will be in heaven. Just a suggestion, i was afraid of a discontinue of that stylus, so i ordered a few spares from lp gear, i would save up and order one spare at some point.....................but i have seen 3600 replacement stylus in white on ebay with a carbon fiber cantilever like yours also, but only $10-12 replacement, i am curious how that stylus compares and may order one. If it matches well, i will order a few of them also.[/QUOTE]

Good idea, I'm on it!