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LPs outsell CDs again, now? Yep.

intro6 said:
Then why collect LPs either? Aren't they just containers of music on a disc too?
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A CD is "just a container" because the information stored on it is not permanently tied to it in any meaningful way. You can copy the information off of it with zero loss or degradation to the point where the CD itself is no longer needed. None of this applies to LPs.
 
Chris Brown said:
A CD is "just a container" because the information stored on it is not permanently tied to it in any meaningful way. You can copy the information off of it with zero loss or degradation to the point where the CD itself is no longer needed. None of this applies to LPs.
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Collecting physical media is fun. It is something tactile you can hold and touch. That is something to really consider. Perhaps it isn't the right approach for you. That is fine. It is, however, the correct path for many. LPs have a charm, as do CDs. :)
 
Chris Brown said:
A CD is "just a container" because the information stored on it is not permanently tied to it in any meaningful way. You can copy the information off of it with zero loss or degradation to the point where the CD itself is no longer needed. None of this applies to LPs.
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Sure it applies to LPs. The music information on them can pretty easily be converted exactly to digital form with software like Audacity etc., so there's your music "container". The music on CDs is permanently tied to those discs, unlike recordable CD-ROMs which weren't manufactured as prerecorded media. Also, you avoided my points about the physical collectability of CDs which is an intangible but nontechnical aspect of music enjoyment that is important to so many listeners. But don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-vinyl. I have long kept my good-sized collection of vinyl LPs (& 45s) for many years which I still continue to build onto, albeit very slowly. But I really enjoy collecting CDs and that's what I've typically been buying for some time now.

BTW, love cassettes too!
 
intro6 said:
Sure it applies to LPs. The music information on them can pretty easily be converted exactly to digital form with software like Audacity etc., so there's your music "container".
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The fundamental concept of being able to easily make bit-for-bit perfect copies of digital files, compared to analog mediums, where there will always be loss when a copy is made, is a very basic one. No, you cannot make an exact digital conversion of an LP. You can make a lossy recording that might produce results that are subjectively satisfactory, but that's it.

intro6 said:
The music on CDs is permanently tied to those discs, unlike recordable CD-ROMs which weren't manufactured as prerecorded media.
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Regular CDs are read-only, but that's not what I meant when I said "permanently tied to it in any meaningful way". You can make an exact copy of the data on that CD that is identical to the original in every way. At that point you could still have access to that exact copy, even after you no longer have access to the original CD, thus the data is not permanently tied to that original CD. This is in contrast to analog media, as mentioned previously, where any attempt to copy the songs will have some loss compared to the original. With no ability to make a copy that is as good as the original, the music as it exists on an LP is permanently tied to that LP.

intro6 said:
Also, you avoided my points about the physical collectability of CDs which is an intangible but nontechnical aspect of music enjoyment that is important to so many listeners. But don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-vinyl. I have long kept my good-sized collection of vinyl LPs (& 45s) for many years which I still continue to build onto, albeit very slowly. But I really enjoy collecting CDs and that's what I've typically been buying for some time now.
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I ignored all of that because it has nothing to do with anything I was commenting on. My original comment was about music sales, and people associating digital music sales with CD sales.

If you enjoy album artwork, or collecting albums, or just the satisfaction of being able to hold something physical in your hands, all of that is fine. But it still has nothing to do with the music itself in a strict sense. If we are going to obscure this all by injecting all kinds of abstract presences into the mix, then we might as well be talking about how you can only enjoy the music properly while sitting on a certain type of couch, or under certain lighting conditions. Or, we could just accept that we all have random preferences and stick to talking about the music.
 
For me, the thing that makes physical media compelling is that you have to be more intentional with it: its very nature forces you to get out of your chair to manually select it, handle it with care, place it in/on the player, queue it up and play it, then remove it and put it away in order to repeat the process and listen to something else (or nothing at all). this often (but not always) involves more intention and attention than streaming files and can create a more intimate listening experience. If I'm playing a side of vinyl, I'm locked in for 15-22 minutes and listening intently for that time, whereas if I'm streaming a playlist, I feel freer to move about the room, water my plants, do dishes or even leave the room and come back later. Part of this, I feel has to do with the preciousness of the material: vinyl, being the least durable, requires more attention in handling and queuing, which often translates into more attention in listening, particularly as repeated listing can degrade both the media and the stylus. that impermanence, in my experience, makes the experience more valuable and intense, because it is finite and limited to an extent. a compact disc, while also vulnerable to damage and requires the same care in handling, does not degrade with repeated playback and digital media can be streamed infinitely, without care. In my collection, I have about 5500-6000 cds and LPs stored on a hard drive, around 150 vinyls and a couple dozen discs, DVD-A, Blu-Ray Audio, SACD and CD, plus a streaming service. I stream the most, particularly in my car, but also at home and reserve my vinyls for times when I really want to focus on the listening experience. In addition to casual listening, I also use streaming to find new artists and music, as a "try before you buy" service to determine which vinyls I want to purchase and keep in my limited storage area.
 
Gigantic said:
For me, the thing that makes physical media compelling is that you have to be more intentional with it: its very nature forces you to get out of your chair to manually select it, handle it with care, place it in/on the player, queue it up and play it, then remove it and put it away in order to repeat the process and listen to something else (or nothing at all). this often (but not always) involves more intention and attention than streaming files and can create a more intimate listening experience. If I'm playing a side of vinyl, I'm locked in for 15-22 minutes and listening intently for that time, whereas if I'm streaming a playlist, I feel freer to move about the room, water my plants, do dishes or even leave the room and come back later. Part of this, I feel has to do with the preciousness of the material: vinyl, being the least durable, requires more attention in handling and queuing, which often translates into more attention in listening,
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I rarely listen to play lists at home, I stream the complete albums just like I do playing vinyls or CDs. I always see people calling out playlists as if that is the only way you can stream :rolleyes:
 
GChief said:
I rarely listen to play lists at home, I stream the complete albums just like I do playing vinyls or CDs. I always see people calling out playlists as if that is the only way you can stream :rolleyes:
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I do about 50/50 between playlists and full albums at home, but in the car, it's more like 30/70 albums and playlists. sometimes I want a deep dive into a record, either because I prefer the LP format or I want to decide if I want to buy an new release, other times I just want to listen to a radio station where I'm the DJ.
 
I like having the variety of all formats available. Right now, streaming sounds best in my system and gets the majority of use. CDs and vinyl records remain as seldom used backups. Streaming has brought back the ability to put together favorite playlists similar to how I used cassettes and cassette decks back in the day, but with greater ease and much better sound quality.
 
Chris Brown said:
No, you cannot make an exact digital conversion of an LP. You can make a lossy recording that might produce results that are subjectively satisfactory, but that's it.
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I think I have to disagree. From what I understand, any audio can be recorded digitally as a lossless recording and that would certainly include the audio output from a good quality turntable (or any quality for that matter). Assuming a proper setup, that lossless recording should sound exactly the same as from the turntable itself. It's not just microphones and electric/electronic instruments that can be recorded lossless, it's any audio signal. Anyway, I fear I'm veering awfully close to that old, tired digital vs. analog debate. Hopefully it doesn't descend into that (at least too much).

Chris Brown said:
If you enjoy album artwork, or collecting albums, or just the satisfaction of being able to hold something physical in your hands, all of that is fine. But it still has nothing to do with the music itself in a strict sense. If we are going to obscure this all by injecting all kinds of abstract presences into the mix, then we might as well be talking about how you can only enjoy the music properly while sitting on a certain type of couch, or under certain lighting conditions. Or, we could just accept that we all have random preferences and stick to talking about the music.
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It's all fine IMO. Whatever preference the individual has is the right way to go. I happen to like the tangible aspect of collecting the physical album and that includes CDs.
 
intro6 said:
Sure it applies to LPs. The music information on them can pretty easily be converted exactly to digital form with software like Audacity etc., so there's your music "container". The music on CDs is permanently tied to those discs, unlike recordable CD-ROMs which weren't manufactured as prerecorded media. Also, you avoided my points about the physical collectability of CDs which is an intangible but nontechnical aspect of music enjoyment that is important to so many listeners. But don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-vinyl. I have long kept my good-sized collection of vinyl LPs (& 45s) for many years which I still continue to build onto, albeit very slowly. But I really enjoy collecting CDs and that's what I've typically been buying for some time now.

BTW, love cassettes too!
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My CD collection is rather modest by the standards of many on this forum (or gigantic by the standards of some :rflmao: ), but I find the artwork and "liner notes" to be some of the most important aspects of collecting CDs. I also love cassettes. I tend to make "mix-tapes" for various moods or years of musical release. What I really love about doing that is that it recreates the warmer "analog" sound from digital sources without all the issues of LP. You do, however, require two prerequisites: (1) an excellent tape deck or two, and (2) excellent blank cassettes. My favorite are the TDK SA-X, Denon HD8, and Maxell XLII-S, as well as various Type IV variants. Of these, Sony, Triad, and TDK, I think, made the very best. :)
 
intro6 said:
I think I have to disagree. From what I understand, any audio can be recorded digitally as a lossless recording and that would certainly include the audio output from a good quality turntable (or any quality for that matter). Assuming a proper setup, that lossless recording should sound exactly the same as from the turntable itself. It's not just microphones and electric/electronic instruments that can be recorded lossless, it's any audio signal. Anyway, I fear I'm veering awfully close to that old, tired digital vs. analog debate. Hopefully it doesn't descend into that (at least too much)
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I agree with that. You can make "lossless" (FLAC is my format of choice) recordings from any source. If you make them from an LP, you will, however, have all the limitations inherent of the LP. This includes its weak dynamics, resolution, and all the crackles and pops. :oops: Then again, look on the bright-side: All the crackles, pops, and other unwanted noise will be reproduced with the stunning, computer controlled precision, in absolute detail, that 2001's HAL 9000 could only dream about (as the HAL 9000 became operational, according to Stanley Kubrik, in 1992). :D :)

P.S. Did the HAL 9000 run on... What did it run on, as it was even too early for Windows 95? :idea:
 
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intro6 said:
I think I have to disagree. From what I understand, any audio can be recorded digitally as a lossless recording and that would certainly include the audio output from a good quality turntable.
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The resulting digital file might use lossless compression, but:
-the playback process is not lossless
-the recording process is not lossless

Making a digital recording of an analog source is not the same thing as making a bit-for-bit file copy of a digital file, even if the results are "good enough".

This isn't an attempt on my part to comment on which format is "better", only pointing out a basic fact about each format. With PCM audio (CD audio), whether that is delivered to your house over the internet, or on a plastic CD, the digital file is exactly the same. There is no downloadable equivalent to an LP.
 
Okay, this seems to be starting to go down the rabbit hole of digital vs. analog. Maybe someone who's more inclined than me to argue technical minutia will respond - maybe they won't. In any case I've said my piece.
 
GordonW said:
An interesting tidbit:

https://www.npr.org/2023/03/10/1162568704/vinyl-outsells-cds-first-time-since-1987-records

Apparently, it took a combination of a gain in LP sales (17% increase over last year) and a loss of CD sales (18% reduction from last year), to do it.

Funny, as I have been on a CD ripping and digital library campaign, recently. Replacing lost or damaged CDs, getting CDs and digital downloads to fill in gaps in my collection, and such. Mostly, because I seem to spend a lot of time on long car trips recently (Atlanta GA area to Goshen IN, Washington DC, and Tampa FL in the last 6 months, with a trip to Chicago in the near future), and having my whole digital library on a flash drive to plug into the car stereo, is a wonderful thing...

Regards,
Gordon.
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And no commercials !
 
Chris Brown said:
The resulting digital file might use lossless compression, but:
-the playback process is not lossless
-the recording process is not lossless

Making a digital recording of an analog source is not the same thing as making a bit-for-bit file copy of a digital file, even if the results are "good enough".

This isn't an attempt on my part to comment on which format is "better", only pointing out a basic fact about each format. With PCM audio (CD audio), whether that is delivered to your house over the internet, or on a plastic CD, the digital file is exactly the same. There is no downloadable equivalent to an LP.
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I agree with you on all of that... and it's not so much a matter of opinion but of fact. The fact that a dub from a digital source is not merely a copy, but an exact duplicate, I see as one of the big innovations and best advantages of digital media. All of this business about making new pressings of albums from original tapes, and then issues when those originals have started to wear out, aren't an issue with digital, as the first play is going to be the same as the one that's 10,000 later...
 
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