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Magnavox 9304-20 Revisited: Output Upgrade

Harlon

Active Member
Finally getting around to finishing my console rebuild. Before I button it up and put everything back in the box I want to upgrade the stock outputs.
Question is: Are there any new recommendations for reasonably priced <$100 each output transformers for an EL84/6BQ5 push pull amp floating around?
Before my budget ran out last fall I was exploring the options presented by Edcor and Transcendar.
Dave G, if you're listening, did you ever get anywhere with your inquiries with Transcendar mentioned in your 93XX thread?
Thanks for the help.
 
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I'm beginning to feel unwanted.
Any new thoughts or just go with the Transcendar Z565 clones recommended previously?
One new question. If I don't intend to go UL is the Z565 still the best option for an EL84/6BQ5 amp?
Thanks for the help.
 
The original 9302 OTs were 8K primary, so it seems like if you're going with a dcgillespie-style overhaul, just use nice OTs with the same primary impedance and you should be good to go.
 
Thanks,
Yeah, I was thinking that if I'm not looking to go UL paying for the 23/25% taps on the dynaclones isn't necessary.
 
Harlon,

My inclination is that the 565 clones are a bit of overkill. They're a GREAT OT....... but as you already mentioned, you're not needing the UL factor, so IMHO, why include it in your purchase? I've now purchased several sets of Transcendar OTs.....and I find them to be superb! At the same time, I've also purchased several sets of Edcor OTs, and frankly, I've nothing bad to say about them either. And, they're less costly. BUT....they often take a while to get. I think the 'console' environment should somewhat limit your considerations here. This is not to say that a console can't sound wonderful...... as I've heard some that were absolutely breath-taking. But, that was accomplished by just some attention to detail, not by a lot of expensive up-grades. The original OTs were well suited to the unit as designed. They were a good match for the speakers that came with the consoles....and I think Magnavox engineers worked well with their purchasing and marketing departments so as not to over-promise and under-deliver, or vice versa. So, basically what I'm saying is that if you have an otherwise 'stock' console, with 'stock' speakers, and the 'stock' pre-amp/tuner section....then just a properly detailed power amp section as per the original design and components should make your unit sound great....WITHOUT spending a lot of money on upgraded transformers.

My own 'unprofessional' feeling is that when you take the amp OUT of the console environment and then start using it in conjunction with different speakers and pre-amp units, that's when you introduce a lot of variables that are simply a 'constant' within the console environment. As such, you begin to operate in a realm where you're comparing the amp as a 'stand-alone' power amp with other similar units...which is NOT the original design intent of the Magnavox people. Granted, this amp is so well engineered and so well built that it lends itself to being cannibalized out of the consoles and placed in the stand-alone arena. But, IMHO, only then is it really appropriate to start dealing with a lot of design and parts changes....such that they become significantly audible on some more sensitive speakers. If sticking within the original habitat of the console....to me, it just makes the most sense to just make sure that the power amp is functioning 100% as it was designed to perform......as I doubt that a simple change of output transformer would greatly alter the outcome of the overall performance of the console. But, a poorly performing power amp, even of a 'stock' nature, will clearly degrade the sound of the console unit.

So.....my advice....FWIW.....is that you simply do a 100% check-out of your amp.....possibly replace the filter caps just for good measure, and likewise the coupling caps, and then check every single resistor for any significant drift....as there will likely be some.....and replace those that are out of value. Then, with a fresh set of tubes, see how the console sounds to you, and ask yourself......is it really worth spending a couple of hundred dollars and several more hours of your time to replace the output transformers when your 'really' might not hear much overall distinction in sonic reproduction capability? Would improved speakers be a better choice? I dunno....... I do know that the Maggie amps are wonderful units.....and 'upgrading' them has been a LOT of fun for me in the past few years. But, NONE of what I've done has landed back inside a console.

Anyway..... I just didn't want you to feel 'neglected' without any responses here!! Not that mine is worth a grain of salt. But, some times I just wonder how much 'improvement' really gets done in situations like this. Here's a thought: Are you able to perhaps get your hands on a friend's ST-35 or maybe an SCA-35 such that you could hook that amp up to your console's speakers and do a 'listening' test? I'm just thinking that in so doing, you might find that something reveals itself....either that they play no better than your 'stock' Maggie....or that they deliver enough power that they over-drive your speakers.....or what-ever. Something might come of it that you make your mind up as to buying different output transformers. Of course....if your original's are 'blown'....then I guess new one's will be on their way.....lol.

Good luck what ever you do. Hope it works out!

Tom D.
 
Thanks for the advise Tom.

This has been something of a long haul project. Most of it is documented here on AK. The amp is in its 3rd iteration now. I've done a few rounds of refurb and modifications as I've gone through the process. Learning and discovering what I like as I go. My goal now is to upgrade the outputs and build it two more times. Once in its current tweaked form, and then once with Dave's mods from his 9300 thread. Once I hear both I'll pick one and finalize the project.
I've built it as a stand alone incorporated into it's original console.
The console is set up to run a variety of amps. In addition to the 9304, I have a 6v6 and 7868 amp that can be interchanged in the unit.
Speakers are currently stock 12s and horns. Down the road I intend to upgrade to better outboard units.

So anyway. I'm just trying to build the best amp I can. It's more of a "Harlon" than a Magnavox at this point. I'm looking to upgrade outputs so I can get the most out of the 6BQ5's.
 
Thanks Mark,
As far as the 15 vs 30 Watts, is there anything to the "more headroom" argument for going bigger.
Thanks,
Harlon
 
Harlon,

I 'get' what you're doing...and I admire your dedication. My commentary was more a function of all the 'proprietary' connections that a 'stock' Maggie amp has with it's mated pre amp/tuner. Needless to say, if you're console is still using the 'stock' pre/tuner, then the power supply 'to' that is generally derived from the power amps transformer, as well as all the required connections. That makes it rather difficult to just 'drop in' a new and different power amp, just for 'trial' purposes. And, I suppose, there's also the question of just how good is the original Magnavox's pre-amp section as compared to other pre-amps? In all.... it makes for some pretty complicated comparisons. Hence my thought about just trying another amp with just your speakers...... just to see what kind of sound your console/speakers might be capable of offering? Not out of the question to hook up about anything....provided the impedance match-up were properly considered. If I'm not mistaken, most of those console amps all had a 4 ohm speaker load? I think most amps could offer that, although I believe the 'original' Z-565s were 8 and 16 ohms in final output....so the 'clone' versions with the 4 ohm secondary would probably be your 'best' choice if you were to attempt to use those.....or a derivative there-of.

From a 'power' perspective, this comes down to voltage at load.....and just what the transformer can deliver on one end, and 'take' on the other end. When dealing with a tube like the 6BQ5, I think the 15 watt mark for push-pull is kind of considered the 'norm'. I know Dynaco listed their amps at 17.5..... and some other manufacturers make claims upwards of 20 watts for a pair. I believe there is someone out there now who is claiming to get upwards of 30 watts out of a pair of 6BQ5s....which I guess can be done, but I sure don't get how???? To me, the 12 to 15 watt range is what I consider 'safe'....as most of the designs I work with use voltages on the plates and grids that result in that level of output at rated load. And, again, the issue of 'Distortion' is not withstanding either. I'm venturing back into some 'Guitar Amp' builds now in response to some requests from some friends. In that arena the issue of 'distortion' is a desired factor. From a 'home audio' perspective, I cringe when I think of what some of these amps do to the tubes!!.....lol

Anyway..... sounds like you've got a plan and you're sticking to it! Again...good luck with it all.....and I hope you end up getting your desired results!!


Tom
 
Tom,
Thanks,
I should have said, I'm a bit of a friendless loser.
All kidding aside, I'm pretty much solo in my audio endeavors. So unless I fall into an ST35, I'm winging it.

The great limitation on this project is the console. It was my wife's grandmother's. Shortly after I started tearing it apart she told me I could do what I wanted as far as refurbing and modding below decks, but she wanted the console fully functioning and looking stock. Thus the adventure began.
It's been awhile since I worked on this steady, but generally, I should be good on power for running different amps.
In the early stages I spent the bulk of my time modding the power supply to run the console and amp independently,
image.jpeg

Yeah, I'm fairly certain 30watt outputs is overkill.
 
The Dc resistance of the 30 watts is lower and they will do lower bass and handle more current , the larger the core ( to a point )the better transfomer is .You also get multi tapped outputs , so if you use 4 ohm , 8 ohm or 16 ohm speakers your prepaid .
 
I have the 25 watt 8k Edcor transformers on mine, and the front end and power supply is modified per Dave Gillespie's schematic. It has EFB as well. It does 11 honest watts. I've been meaning to get back to it to see where its running out of steam. May just be a matter of transformer efficiency. I've kinda gotten side tracked with other projects and other life issues.
 
Thanks for the peeping audiophilliac in conversation window I witnessed from both of you! I know this is 6 plus years later: Fascinating post; I learned alot! And I love that OPs wife said leave the original exterior alone of console alone ( quite sure besides an oil and polish). I would love to hear that Maggie. She's still a Maggie. Though she's been on Atkins, Gluten Free, and Keto diets to keep her shape to boogie or drift down in sofa or reliant background beauty in journey in sound during dinner conversatios. Despite any metabolic changes: With age she continues to rock the joint! Some Mississippi Hill Country would set those tube and output ablaze on that Maggie or thump the John Lee Hooker like no worries for tomorrow because it's today. Even at Christmas time Bing Crosby never sounded so debonair and suave.
 
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