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MC 240 and Dynakit ST35

Dave_in_Va.

AK Subscriber
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I recently bought my first McIntosh, a recapped '67 240 so I'm new to the world of McIntosh.

Should I expect the 240 to be louder than my ST 35. Both amps are loaded with very nice tubes.

(Same speakers, turntable, cart, interconnects)

The 240 sounds great and is smoother and more "sophisticated" than the ST 35 but the 35 is louder which is surprising. The 35 sounds very nice also.

Are the extra Mc watts just taken up with depth and headroom instead of volume?
 
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Are you using the same taps on both amps (8 Ohm or 4 Ohm)? That will make a difference.

Loud is gain, which isn’t necessarily power. Yes, headroom / power, current capacity isn’t gain but think of it more as the ability to drive speakers properly at the same gain. To use a car reference, gain is a taller gear, without the power the car will not be able to pull hills at speed.

The MC240 also has different sensitivity on the different inputs. Are you using the STEREO inputs or TWIN?
 
I'm using the 16 ohm outputs on both amps (into a 16 ohm pair of Zu Audio Souls Supremes).
Stereo inputs. Not an exotic set up. Turntable into phono pre into line pre into both the 240 and 35 (two outputs on the line pre). Outputs of the 240 and 35 go to a switcher, then into the Soul Supremes.

I've been going back and forth and I'm listening to the 240 at the moment. It does sound better than the 35.
Thanks.
 
The 240 has more "headroom" due to being a ca 55 WPC amp compared to a ca 18 WPC amp. It can get louder on the same speakers.
 
Dave -- This is completely normal what you are observing. The ST-35 reaches its full power output rating with a 1.0 vac signal applied to each of its inputs. But since you are using the Stereo Inputs of the MC240, that amplifier then requires an input level of 2.20 vac at those inputs to reach its rated output of 40 watts in each channel. So if you are driving each channel of the ST-35 with 1.0 volt to reach its rated power output, and the same signal level is also being applied to the stereo inputs of the MC240, that signal level will cause it to only develop 8.27 watts per channel. So the Dynaco sounds louder.

In this scenario then, the difference you are hearing is directly related to a GAIN difference between the amplifiers. Based on their respective rated power output levels, and their input level sensitivity to produce that power output, the ST-35 has a gain of 16.7 relative to the 16Ω tap, while the Mac (when using the stereo inputs) has a gain of 11.5 relative to the 16Ω tap. So all else being equal then, for the same signal level applied to these to amplifiers, the Dynaco will sound louder -- but not always.

Just because the Dynaco sounds louder in this scenario doesn't mean it has more power, or that the noted sound level difference will remain consistent at all volume levels. The POWER rating of an amplifier is the ultimate determiner as to how loud a system can cleanly play (all else being equal), given the necessary signal level being applied to an given amplifier's input -- which can vary wildly between and within various models. Some amplifiers only require an input level of 0.5 vac or less to achieve rated power output, while others, much more as shown above. Specifically to your scenario then as you have it connected:

While at a normal listening level the Dynaco plays louder (because of its greater gain as explained), it can do so because at this level, both amplifiers are no doubt operating well within their rated power abilities. However, if you continue to turn up the volume, at some point, the Dynaco will reach it's full power output capability, where any further rotation of the volume knob will simply cause it to start distorting due to overload. Up to that point, the Dynaco will always play louder than the Mac because it has more gain. However, if you then continue to turn up the volume from that point, the Dynaco will simply become more and more distorted but get no louder, because it has now run out of power. The Mac on the other hand will continue to get cleanly louder -- first to the point where it then equals the maximum sound level that the Dynaco could play cleanly at (remember it was not playing as loudly before continuing to turn up the volume), but then when continuing to turn the volume up even further, the Mac will play cleanly louder than the Dynaco ever could -- because it has more POWER output capability.

When comparing power amplifiers, gain and power are closely related, but it's often a confusing topic to many (and therefore erroneously analyzed) if it is looked at simply from the standpoint of how loudly one amplifier plays versus another when looked at from the standpoint of a given volume control setting to produce a given sound level. While they are closely related then, they are also distinctly different: Gain determines the input signal level required of an amplifier to reach its rated power output, while rated power output then determines how loudly the system can cleanly play.

If you want more gain from your Mac, then use the Twin inputs. With these inputs, then besides having greater power output, the Mac will also display more gain than the Dynaco, requiring you to actually back the Twin input gain knobs down from a full up setting to make the two amplifiers play at similar sound levels.

I hope this helps!

Dave
 
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Thanks to all of you. This really helps. Dave, your explanation was very clear and understandable.
Basically I was in a situation where I had paid four times more for the 240 than the ST 35 and just wanted to make sure everything is right (I'm pretty old and expect this to be my last stereo set up).
The 240 had been recapped by a pro with almost 50 year years experience (EE - same brick and mortar shop since '72 - a really good guy) but I didn't know if he had done any bench tests or anything since the re-capping was done by the previous owner.

So I guess I learned that the 240 is a really fine amp and the Dynakit ST35 is stone cold bargain and also very fine sounding.

I don't really need more gain from either amp as with these highly efficient Zu Audio speakers and my small room, running the vol. control on the preamp up to about ten o'clock is the top end.

Do most 240 owners use the stereo inputs or the twin inputs?

Thanks again.
It seems my only audio problem now is that I really don't have anything to upgrade ;-)
Dave (in Va.)
 
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Congratulations, you have 2 very fine stereo tube amplifiers. The 240 is extremely desirable being an icon of the early stereo days, and McIntosh.
The ST35 represents the budget minded offering. An extremely nice amplifier that would have you thinking twice about the extra cost of a McIntosh. I've got a st35, and I've got a pair of MC30s and I enjoy both very much. While the McIntosh can easily make 3x the power, its rarely asked to do so.
 
I use the STEREO inputs, and this is why I asked, Dave went ahead and explained.

I do not need the additional gain as my Mc preamp has the output level that matches the MC240's STEREO inputs, if I were to use the TWIN inputs then I am going through GAIN pots (which can introduce phase distortion) and would need to turn them down. The STEREO inputs OTOH also go through the BALANCE pot, ... so one or the other, no clear win there.

Mostly it depends on how the rest of your system is set up.

Also, when Dave discusses distortion above, not all of it is audible (especially in the ST35). In the ST35 I believe you are tube rectified, so even if the output tubes can handle the current, the voltage supplied to it can start to droop and what you'll get is compressed dynamics, the music might still be loud but somewhat lifeless. Typically the distortion in a tube ampe (especially tube rectified) is not easily noticable and first results in compression that some some refer to as "soft clipping" (without the HF element).
 
My line preamp is a VTA SP 14 and the phono preamp is a VTA PH 15.

http://www.tubes4hifi.com/pre11.htm

(Not the slickest website)

The PH 15 is just a PH 16 without the dip switches to utilize a moving coil cart. I use a Ortofon 2M Black MM cart (and in the second table an Ortofon 2M Mono).
The line amp is 6SN7 based and the phono amp is 6922 based.

I have the ST 35 sitting on top of a Yamaha M-2 and can swap that in by taking 30 seconds to move the speaker wires and input lines. I think I'm completely sold on the tubes though and will probably try and sell the M-2. It's quite a beast.
 
I like using the twin outputs on my 240, mostly because it helps me custom balance speaker output to my listening chair given the room shape and acoustics. I feel it provides me a little more customization over the sound. I can also set my C11 volume at 12:00, and then bring up the gain on the 240 to a level that would be as loud as I would ever listen at, and then control the whole thing with the McIntosh CR7 remote.
 
I switched my inputs over to Twin and set the gain around 1 o'clock or so. This is more what I was expecting out of the 240.
Before I had the ST 35 in the system I was using a VTA ST 70 so the lower output of the 240 was puzzling.

It all sounds very good. :-)
 
St 35 can barely put out its rated power from 100 to 10,000 hz with out going over 1 or 2 % distortion. Its not unnusual to see 10 % distortion at 12 to 15 watts at the extremes. Meanwhile a 240 thats up to snuff can put out 55 watts per channel and be below 0.5% from 20 to 20,000 hz. But with any tube amp its all about the quality of tubes you re using. Back in the 60's when great tubes could be found easily I was at least replacing one or two tubes every 6 months to keep my two 240's the best they could be. Oh they still met specs, but they could be so much better with good tubes. Thats why I gave up on tubes in the 70's because good tubes were almost impossible to find. I admit now I should have kept my 275's that followed the 240's longer jumping to SS to soon. But replacing a set of tubes could get expensive fast and as I could get 2100's a great price working for a company that sold Mac, I made the change.
 
The way you set up your Mac amp if you are not using a Mac pre-amp is to set the volume control of the pre-amp at 12:00 oclock with an average recording you like and then advance the twin volume controls up till the level of sound is just a tiny bit louder than your average listening level. This gives the best signal to noise while optimizing distortion levels between the pre-amp and the power amp. Twin inputs cranked wide open have a .5 volt sensitivity, but at that setting signal to noise from the pre-amp can be easily compromised.
 
St 35 can barely put out its rated power from 100 to 10,000 hz with out going over 1 or 2 % distortion. Its not unnusual to see 10 % distortion at 12 to 15 watts at the extremes. Meanwhile a 240 thats up to snuff can put out 55 watts per channel and be below 0.5% from 20 to 20,000 hz. But with any tube amp its all about the quality of tubes you re using. Back in the 60's when great tubes could be found easily I was at least replacing one or two tubes every 6 months to keep my two 240's the best they could be. Oh they still met specs, but they could be so much better with good tubes. Thats why I gave up on tubes in the 70's because good tubes were almost impossible to find. I admit now I should have kept my 275's that followed the 240's longer jumping to SS to soon. But replacing a set of tubes could get expensive fast and as I could get 2100's a great price working for a company that sold Mac, I made the change.

Good tubes are still relatively easy to find. For more money, of course. But if one can afford to own a classic Mc tube piece, one should be able to afford good vintage tubes, and if not, good new production tubes can be had from reputable dealers on the cheap.
 
The way you set up your Mac amp if you are not using a Mac pre-amp is to set the volume control of the pre-amp at 12:00 oclock with an average recording you like and then advance the twin volume controls up till the level of sound is just a tiny bit louder than your average listening level. This gives the best signal to noise while optimizing distortion levels between the pre-amp and the power amp. Twin inputs cranked wide open have a .5 volt sensitivity, but at that setting signal to noise from the pre-amp can be easily compromised.

Wouldn't that apply to somebody who owns a Mac pre as well?
 
Yeah, nice tubes are pretty expensive but as I said, I'm pretty old and this will most likely be my last stereo system. I don't really care how much the tubes cost.
The 240 has new testing RCA black-plate 6L6GC with Telefunken and RCA drivers, etc.
1964 Amperex (NY) 7308s in the phono pre and 1972 Soviet 6SN7 variants in the line pre.

1970's Soviet EL84 variants (can't remember the Cyrillic) and nos Mullard 12DW7s in the ST 35. The ST 70 has xf3 Phillips/Mullards and a 7316 in the driver slot.
Luckily I bought back ups for most of these a while back and don't foresee any tube purchases in the future.
Fun but expensive.]

(I'm listening to the 240 now set on "Twin" and thinking I can probably sell a few of these extra amps now. The 240 seems to be the king.)
I appreciate all of the help and advice.
 
Love my MC40 monoblocks, those 6L6 tubes really sound good. I'm using an Audio Research SP8 preamp so have plenty of drive.
twiiii you must have been driving those MC240's pretty hard if you were going through tubes that often. Mac's have a reputation for being easy on tubes.

BillWojo
 
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