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MC250 and MC2100

Number 9

Number 9

Well-Known Member
I've seen some posts here and there, where some people seem to think these (the 2100 and 250) were some of the best sounding "vintage" solid-state amps Mc made. Perhaps due to the fact they were the first ss amps, they were "voiced" to sound like their tube cousins.

Has anyone here compared these to the current generation Mc amps? How would they sound different? :confused:

Thanks
 
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Last comparisone I did was about 2-3 years ago; time passes too quickly. I've owned a 250 since new and got a new (well new for me, set of Bozak Symphonys) that seemed to need a bit more to open up. Started my search and at a local Mc dealer ran into a mint 2105 (2100 with glass and meters). Brought in the 250 and than these against the new units. New stuff sounded wonderful but let me feeling the amp was uninterested in what it was doing, just delivering notes, matter of fact, nothing more or less - sounds like a perfit through wire with gain but, also stripped out the 1 think I find missing in so many amps - the emotion within the music is stripped out a difference between a performance and THE performance. I've happily lived with my 250 and 2105 since. I think that if I were going from another brand an listened to both, I may have chosen the new since it comes closer to the new neutral dry sound espoused since the digital startup.
 
I've always found the whole concept of "voicing" fascinating. Now some of the amp makers probably claim they don't do it, but there is something going on here.

I recall a post on Audio Asylum, where someone compared their expensive, and well-regarded Bryston 4BST to an MC2105 they picked up cheap on eBay. They were very surprised. While the Bryston in recent years has gotten a lot of kudos (perhaps alll well deserving - I used to own a 3B many years ago myself), the owner said that the circa 1972 Mc had more bass authority and sounding more musically pleasing (less dry - less cold).

Maybe that's why some people have gone back to tubes - though I've even heard a couple of "cold" sounding new gen tube amps. Maybe that's what "neutral" is supposed to sound like. :dunno: Or maybe its just all in my head and I'm imagining these things - didn't Julian Hirsch of Stereo Review once say that all good amps sound the same.
 
9,

There may be some "voicing" done, but it is most likely done at the prototype stage and not at production time.

I believe that one has to look at specs carefully before one can compare amps. I believe that a lowering of distortion does a fair number of things. If one goes from .01% to .005%, I believe that a reduction like that is audible. Distortion is funny sometimes. My experiences seem to indicate that the sound is smoother. Sometimes distortion is only apparent when one experiences listener fatigue.

If you think all good amps sound alike, one has to start with a good amp and compare it to another good amp. The "good" part is what will get you every time. My idea of good isn't necessarily the same as yours. Comparing a MC240 to a MC275 might be a good comparison, but comparing a MC275 to a MC2300 is not a good one as the specs are much different. Even comparing a MC2300 to a MC2500 would not be a good comparison to prove that good amps sound the same.

In summary, if the specs are different, then the amps in question are going to sound different. Even at that, there is more than specs involved. One would think that specs would tell all there is to know about an amp or any other component for that matter. The problem with measurements is that there aren't enough of them that the average person can make use of.
 
Have compared a 2300 to a 2500, to my ear the 2300 won hands down. Looking at the specs one would think otherwise, a close look at the design told the story, the 2300 can do 600W peak and the one that I tested did 425W before power limiting - pre power guard, the 2500 goes into power guard at 550W and also limits peak power to less than 600W. This difference made the 2300 sound like it had more impact, presence, and athority when pushed.
 
IIRC ... there was an interview with Roger Saunders of Innersound about two years ago in TAS or Stereophile - and he mentions that he did not like putting power limiting circuits in amps because in his experience ... they almost always had a negative effect on sound. So Terry are you saying that the 2100 may sound good because it lacks Power Guard?

My Mc amp has a Power Guard circuit, but just out of personal taste, I never play music loud anyways (well certainly not as loud as twenty years ago when I had long hair :cool: ). The highest I think I've ever gone on my volume pot is the 11'oclock position, and I have quite ineffecient and difficult to drive speakers. To this day, I've never tripped the Power Guard ... I've even wondered at times if it works.
 
The MC50, 100, 250, 2100, 2505, 2105, 2205, and 2300 were early design that had current and voltage limiting for safety (Sentry Monitor), they will sound the same as later models with power guard if run easy, when pushed to the limit I find that the Sentry Monitor gives better peak power and more body than the Power Guard models. This may be why many listeners think that they have a more tube like sound.
As Number 9 says, at normal levels you can not tell the difference when driving most speakers.
 
Terry,

If you are interested, I have a MC2500 that has a PowerGuard switch that was factory installed so that one can disable it at will. I could draw up the schematic if you wish so that you can install the switch yourself.

I have heard the 2300 and the 2500 was a bit smoother. Just my impression FWIW.
 
Most owners leave the power guard enabled, it is a good idea that saves speakers. The 2300 and 2500 have quite different designs in the front end and drivers, simple vs. complex, best to leave original and enjoy, and not push my ML2D's to the point of smoke........
 
I do have a MC2125 as well as a few MC2100's. The sound to me
is much the same when I compared one against another, neither better, just a little different signature.This also could be from I did replace the big can caps with new ones from McIntosh on the MC2100 I used to compare. I haven't gotten into when the power guard kicks in as all my speakers are too efficient though. As the
tech at the dealer told me, Man you are seriously over-amped!:)
So Rich, you run an MC2500 with a C22? Very Nice! What speakers do you use?

Carl
 
Terry,

I quite agree. I never disable the circuit. The number of times that I actually push 500+ watts per channel is quite rare. If I really wanted to go nuts, I could put both amps in bridge mode and do 1k WPC. I know I would blow the speaker fuses then.

I really should document the mod anyway. It could come in handy one day. I am going to be making some new feet for my MC2500. The rubber feet are a bit too sticky so I am going to make some new ones from UHMW plastic. Should make it easier to slide them in and out of the cabinets.

r
 
Originally posted by CarlV
I do have a MC2125 as well as a few MC2100's. The sound to me
is much the same when I compared one against another, neither better, just a little different signature.This also could be from I did replace the big can caps with new ones from McIntosh on the MC2100 I used to compare. I haven't gotten into when the power guard kicks in as all my speakers are too efficient though. As the
tech at the dealer told me, Man you are seriously over-amped!:)
So Rich, you run an MC2500 with a C22? Very Nice! What speakers do you use?

Carl
Click to expand...

Carl,

You are probably going to hate me. My speakers are XRT22s. Yes, yes, I know i suck! (:>)

Over-amped? Maybe a little. But it is nice to know that the amps will last a while.

Rich
 
Those are great speakers, you have a very sweet rig!
2 -MC2500's? :D
I'm a horn junky. :p: McIntosh needs to make me some horns!;)
Nothing wrong and everything right when you have a lot more power you use!

Carl
 
Carl,

Personally, I am burnt out on horns and finding good sounding ones is not a trivial task. Horns are an interesting item and are very efficient.

One amp is a spare and might be pressed into full time service when I get the HT setup started. I am looking for the right speakers and when I find them I will buy them and then get a decoder.

RIch
 
Rich,
We use toilet seat bumpers for feet on the 2300 and 2500 rails, they may be white but never seem to leve any marks or get gummy.
Hunt them down at a plumbing supply house, I dont think Lows or Home Depot have them.
 
I've owned both the MC250 and the MC2100...great sounding amps; very tube-like in their presentation. My first Mac was the direct-coupled MC7200 (without Autoformers). Didn't own it long enough for a thorough comparison between late model and early model Mac SS amps, but to my untrained ears, the early model MC250 and MC2100 power amps seemed to have more air and presence to their distinctive soundscape (the newer MC7200 seemed drier but tighter). It's all up to your ears, but IMO, all Macs sound flawless regardless of age or design. I could've easily lived with the MC7200 if it wasn't sold due to unforseen circumstances!
 
Originally posted by Rich Andrews

I am going to be making some new feet for my MC2500. The rubber feet are a bit too sticky so I am going to make some new ones from UHMW plastic. Should make it easier to slide them in and out of the cabinets.
Click to expand...

Hey Rich, Do those use the standard size feet? Nearby in Berkeley
there's a place that sells identical ones that are old stock. They
are a hard plastic, brown only, and they sell them for @20 cents
each if you're interested.

Carl
 
Carl,

The MC2300/2500 and MC2600 all use the same feet which measure 1/2" x 1/2" x 2 1/2" roughly. When I needed feet, I looked at the feet and just knew that I had seen them somewhere else. I racked my brain for a week before giving up. Mc had them in stock, but the only color available was white. I called around and someone knew what they were. They are toilet seat bumpers! It hit me like a ton of bricks as I knew that I had seen them used in that application. I found it quite amusing at the time. If you think about it it makes sense from a design standpoint. Hard enough to withstand 150+ lbs for a long period of time, and a stock item almost anywhere. Cheap and effective. The problem is with the influx of plastics, they are nearly obsolete as bumpers are now molded into the seat now. I looked for some black bumpers to no avail. There might be some in an old hardware store in the middle of Calumet City, IL, but I am not that much of a purist, so I bought the white ones from Mc. The new ones are a bit softer and that makes them a bit stickier when trying to move the amps. So, in the interest of increasing the ease of moving the amps out of the cabinet, I am going to make some out of UHMW plastic. The plastic is much harder than the rubber, but is much slicker. I mentioned the seat bumper issue to Roger, and he said that the rail system was something that General Radio had come up with. Mc obtained permission from GR to use that same rail system for the MC2300. Trying to find replacement rails is quite difficult. I got lucky and found someone that had a pair they wanted to sell. There are a fair number of amps out there that don't have the side rails, so if you find an amp that has them, it adds more than just a few bucks to it's value AFAIC.

The company that originally made the rails has been out of business for some time now. I have no clue if that aluminum extrusion is available so that one can make some.
 
Hey Rich, Great story! Those are definitely different. Could you paint the white ones and glue some felt pads on them as well?
Just a thought. I haven't seen the rail setup before, it would be interesting to check out. I can imagine it's a nice option to have with the weight of those things. :cool:
Toilet seat bumpers :p:

Carl
 
Painting the feet might work, but the feet are on the bottom and unless the amp is in a position to where one can see them it really doesn't matter. The paint would likely flake off anyway. Felt would not stick too well all things considered. 150 lbs placed on a small foot print like 1/2 by 2 1/2 inches times 4 isn't a lot of area. It actually comes to something like 150 lbs on a 2x2 pad. If you look at back01 and back02 you will see what the rails and bumpers look like. The UHMW plastic is white too. I plan on making them the entire length of the bottom rail. I will take pictures this time and show the process. It will give me something to do over the holidays.
 
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