Mid Fi to Hi Fi threshold

[DaveVoorhis]

Welcome to the New Millennium and the Age of Identity Politics. People are now offended faster than your speakers can handle transients!

I find this comment offensive.



















Joke!

 

[melofelo]

Understand that "flat" means "unchanged". Do you want your reproducers to reproduce or alter the result with their own personality?
Good point . I want a transducer to reproduce a musical sound that sounds realistic in my own listening space , using my own phono stage and amplification and my own musical sources, and , taking into account the very real acoustic constraints and peculiarities of my own listening space.
Measuring how accurate they sound in a laboratory or anechoic chamber , does not guarantee anything about how accurate or realistic they will sound in my own system or environment when perceived by own hearing curve.

Average room sizes in the uk tend to be a bit different to the average elsewhere , which is why a two way loudspeaker design tends to be more popular here despite the fact that you can not design a flat sounding two way loudspeaker that gives much useful output below 50hz never mind maintain 'flatness' from 20hz to 20 hkz. Such a room size may actually rule out a three way design that measures more accurately in a lab but sounds hopelessly 'inaccurate' in a domestic room (standing waves , reverberations, cabinet size, inability to place them anywhere except in room corners where they always sound the worst anyway , etc)
But , a sensible speaker design for a smaller room may use the actual frequency enhancements found within the acoustics of a smaller space to inform the target frequency curve for such a speaker when it is used in real world situations , and it is seldom flatness that they will aim for if they wish it to sound anything remotely 'realistic' to the customer using them outside of laboratory conditions.

 

[melofelo]

Don't you want a flat response in that domestic room? The greater the deviation from flat response the more a speaker becomes a producer of distortion rather than a reproducer of music.
Yep , that is the aim , but speaker designers have no idea what the acoustics of my room are..so a specification chart does not tell me much about how they will sound , regardless of how flat their response measures elsewhere..

 

[melofelo]

I'm only advocating a neutral starting point.
I think most would agree with you , and i do too. But neutral listening spaces are difficult to achieve in a domestic environment and there is no consensus as to how to achieve this. 'In room frequency response' is also another randomly quoted sales pitch with many speakers , unless the particular 'in-room' that they are referring to , is a free gift that comes the speaker...

 

[Mister Pig]

I believe the bass units are sealed cabinets, while the midrange/tweeter units are infinite baffle design. So yes "infinite baffles with sealed cabinets." Check it out.

Well an infinite baffle implies they are mounted in a wall, or have a opening behind them so large that the back wave is essentially lost, such as a subwoofer in an attic.

You wouldn't happen to mean open baffle?

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[JoeESP9]

My speakers have a HF contour that allows you to control that roll off.


As for me, I've never used in-signal path EQ in the main system since it runs full range. On the other hand, I've used a number of room treatments to provide linear bass response in the bottom couple of octaves.

My forest of bass traps and careful speaker placement has resulted in a very linear response in that region.

I should point out that my use of a DSP is restricted to my subwoofers which are crossed over at 85Hz. Room acoustic treatments (bass traps, absorbers, diffusors, etc.) and meticulous speaker placement have taken care of the rest

Hi-fi is sitting listening to someone play a piano at the Cannabis Club.

Where is this "club" and how do I gain entrance?

Don't you want a flat response in that domestic room? The greater the deviation from flat response the more a speaker becomes a producer of distortion rather than a reproducer of music.
Yep , that is the aim , but speaker designers have no idea what the acoustics of my room are..so a specification chart does not tell me much about how they will sound , regardless of how flat their response measures elsewhere..

I don't buy speakers based on specifications.

 

[melofelo]

I think that speakers must be auditioned. It is the final stage of reproduction where your ears are the only reliable measuring tool necessary. Often , I will choose a pair of speakers that balance the rest of my components within my own room. To do otherwise , is to miss out on the real aim of a good hi fidelity system , enjoying the actual musical performance instead of the equipment's quoted accuracy tolerances.
I remember hearing a double bass being played in a small jazz venue venue once. Th instrument itself sounded horrible. It was unamplified ,the background noise made some of the notes practically inaudible , unless you sat right at the front of the stage, where it sounded even worse. That is probably the most realistic double bass I have ever heard , I really didn't care how crap the venues acoustics were , I was more interested in the realism of what I was hearing than whether the particular instrument would have sounded better in a studio environment with acoustic treatment.
That is what I want from a good system , the believable illusion of musical realism.. not just a graph showing measured accuracy... fancy aesthetics and a price tag to match.
If I can get there with a pair of £149 budget speakers made circa 1985... lucky me...

 

[JoeESP9]

More than once I've posted that anyone thinking of buying any speakers audition them first.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Infinite baffles with sealed cabinets? Is that similar to a time paradox or galvanic isolation.... or a vegan wolf?

Regards
Mister Pig

What is an infinite baffle?
"Infinite baffle" or simply "IB" is also used as a generic term for sealed enclosures of any size, the name being used because of the ability of a sealed enclosure to prevent any interaction between the forward and rear radiation of a driver at low frequencies. Maybe a better and more correct word with have been a sealed enclosure.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Don't you want a flat response in that domestic room? The greater the deviation from flat response the more a speaker becomes a producer of distortion rather than a reproducer of music.

Does one consider the dropping off or a bump in certain frequencies distortion? I never really thought of a speaker that failed to have a flat response as producing distortion.

 

[marqueemoon]

For me at least...

mid-fi = soundstage width
hi-hi = soundstage depth and height (scale)

 

[JoeESP9]

Does one consider the dropping off or a bump in certain frequencies distortion? I never really thought of a speaker that failed to have a flat response as producing distortion.

Any deviation from flat response by any device is by definition "distortion". A device either re-produces the input signal accurately or it distorts it. You can't have both. It's always one or the other.

I'm certain you're not the only one questioning my choice of words. However, isn't anything other than ruler flat response distortion, in that it's not re-producing the input signal accurately? Any deviation from flat is considered to be distortion in an amplifier. Why should speakers operate under different rules?

I direct your attention to Quad ESL 57's. They are the only speakers I'm aware of that can reasonably and semi-accurately reproduce a square wave. That ability in and of itself is one of the reasons Quads have such superb midrange response as reported by everyone who listens to or has heard them.

 

[chicks]

I direct your attention to Quad ESL 57's. They are the only speakers I'm aware of that can reasonably and semi-accurately reproduce a square wave. That ability in and of itself is one of the reasons Quads have such superb midrange response as reported by everyone who listens to or has heard them.

Dunno about the originals, but Walker demonstrated this on his then-new ESL-63s in 1982 (paragraph 6), which he always said were superior to his original design. I like mine.

http://www.stereophile.com/news/121503walker/

 

[matteos]

Actually First Watt models are mostly mid-fi - they are very dependent on speakers parameters, and in many cases sound poorly. See example in latest issue of Stereophile.

Are they? Lol. Have you heard a first watt J2?

I have one... yes you need to match speakers and other audio equipment to it.. with decent efficieny.. but it's hi fi.. it really is.. what are you on about? To call one of the most famous designers of amplifiers.. who uses JFETS that are really hard to get hold of.. in a quasi SET based design.. that's midfi.. is it. Lol

 

[matteos]

From hi-fi I at least expect ability to work with mainstream speakers like ls50. When amplifier cannot outperform Chinese tube unit - this is a bad sign.

Hi-fi. Is not plug and play.. If anything that is what midfi is. You have to match components.. synergy is key. You don't plug a SET amp into LS50s because it won't work. You don't plug your turntable phono leads in to the CD connect on your pre-amp.. because it won't work.. lol. Things have a place and a purpose. Just because one thing is not suited to another doesn't mean it's crap.

 

[JoeESP9]

Dunno about the originals, but Walker demonstrated this on his then-new ESL-63s in 1982 (paragraph 6), which he always said were superior to his original design. I like mine.

http://www.stereophile.com/news/121503walker/

I was too lazy to look it up.

 

[sqlsavior]

They are the only speakers I'm aware of that can reasonably and semi-accurately reproduce a square wave.

"Here come ol' flat-top, he come groovin' up"...quickly.

I wonder what a square wave would physically look like, on vinyl.

 

[Lesterbest]

The hobby has turned into a synergy stew. Not all eat stew.

 

[sqlsavior]

The hobby has turned into a synergy stew. Not all eat stew.

If you mean that a significant portion of hobbyists believe that their system is more than the sum of its parts, then the only reservation I'd have with your statement is the "turned into' part. I recall synergy being emphasized as a strategy/goal very clearly in the early 80's.

I had a college professor once who insisted that you show your work on exams so he could take points off for compensating errors even if your result was correct. In the audio world, the equivalent seems to be a "fidelity" proponent criticizing the methods of a "musicality" proponent.

Myself, I'm in the musicality camp, but, perhaps curiously, I think that high fidelity is usually the faster way to get there, up to a point, at least.

Is that close to what you meant, or am I way off?

 

[Lesterbest]

If you mean that a significant portion of hobbyists believe that their system is more than the sum of its parts, then the only reservation I'd have with your statement is the "turned into' part. I recall synergy being emphasized as a strategy/goal very clearly in the early 80's.

I had a college professor once who insisted that you show your work on exams so he could take points off for compensating errors even if your result was correct. In the audio world, the equivalent seems to be a "fidelity" proponent criticizing the methods of a "musicality" proponent.

Myself, I'm in the musicality camp, but, perhaps curiously, I think that high fidelity is usually the faster way to get there, up to a point, at least.

Is that close to what you meant, or am I way off?

I don't obsess whether a cable or new component will be an epiphany. Every ones' mind runs in a different direction. That's why there's so much gear on the used mkt. Mfgs are always touting a "new break thru" to boost sales. There's no shortage of choice.