whoaru99
Epic Member
Maybe turn off the square waves and start using sines since the phenomenon observed with square waves has been explained as normal/expected for the tests performed.
Maybe turn off the square waves and start using sines since the phenomenon observed with square waves has been explained as normal/expected for the tests performed.
AngelRa
Active Member
The degradation I talking about is when playing music.
DaveVoorhis
Addicted Member
I'm not sure what that means, but it is worth checking that you're not overdriving the input of the miniDSP, and you might try the test I suggested previously: verify that the miniDSP isn't distorting a signal-generator-generated signal that's been passed through a 20khz low-pass filter.
whoaru99
Epic Member
Of course not, but as I eluded to at the beginning this is not new revelation/undiscovered country.
AngelRa
Active Member
Yes, you are right.
JP
7480 74111110101115
Here are some proper measurements of a 4x10HD: https://www.neurochrome.com/minidsp-4x10-hd/
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
BTW, since that device, when not using the computer`s ,possibly dirty, 5 volt limited usb to power it, and it must have a external DC power supply when not connected to the host computer(Wall wart) & can use a fairly wide range of input voltages..
I would be curious to know what voltage it was being powered at, during your listening & bench tests, and whether that power supply was analog, or SM ??
As it is of my opinion, that those DC levels(higher, I would think being probably better) & quality can have a decided effect on SQ performance and signal swing head room, being a single ended DC power source, and not having the signal head room benefit of a split rail +/- power supply, with all other things being up to the task...
Just curious folks..
Carry on.
Kind regards, OKB
I would be curious to know what voltage it was being powered at, during your listening & bench tests, and whether that power supply was analog, or SM ??
As it is of my opinion, that those DC levels(higher, I would think being probably better) & quality can have a decided effect on SQ performance and signal swing head room, being a single ended DC power source, and not having the signal head room benefit of a split rail +/- power supply, with all other things being up to the task...
Just curious folks..
Carry on.
Kind regards, OKB
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
Ok, that`s fine, but if it`s fed lower voltage, like a usb 5 dirty computer volts, don`t you think it might have a effect on the performance/SQ ??
whoaru99
Epic Member
Well, sure, if it had crappy power it's plausible the performance could be negatively impacted.
However, the point about USB is what caught my attention. I don't know if it actually would function on just USB power. The normal power input is a separate connection from the USB port. I've never tried using it that way on only USB or with the PC interface active at the time of use (as in listening) in an audio system. If I needed changes then I reconnected the PC interface, made the changes, then disconnected the PC again.
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
Well, sure, if it had crappy power it's plausible the performance could be negatively impacted.
However, the point about USB is what caught my attention. I don't know if it actually would function on just USB power. The normal power input is a separate connection from the USB port. I've never tried using it that way on only USB or with the PC interface active at the time of use (as in listening) in an audio system. If I needed changes then I reconnected the PC interface, made the changes, then disconnected the PC again.
Well whoaru99, one of the reasons I was curious about possible impact, is because of a variable line level booster I bought from MCM about 3 years ago that uses a single ended DC SM wall wart and it`s signal throughput head room is less for the IC inside, than if it was a split +/- type, and I have to be careful on boosting the line level with it, as it can clip sometimes under strong dynamic signals when I use it for bring up the analog level of my OPPO 203 feeding my analog distribution setup to help match my music levels, which have always tended to be stronger, no matter the source using my Mac C 37 pre-amp.
It have very low distortion(.001 % rated)
It was just my curiosity for the OP`s claim of bad sound and measurements from a well received DSP device..
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
Well, sure, if it had crappy power it's plausible the performance could be negatively impacted.
However, the point about USB is what caught my attention. I don't know if it actually would function on just USB power. The normal power input is a separate connection from the USB port. I've never tried using it that way on only USB or with the PC interface active at the time of use (as in listening) in an audio system. If I needed changes then I reconnected the PC interface, made the changes, then disconnected the PC again.
The manual states input voltage range to be 5~24 volts DC..
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
Never mind, I realized when I was about to post, that it was the "input" that could be internally jumpered to increase the input to 2 volts, not the "output"..
MY BAD, so never mind...
audiomagnate
Addicted Member
Sanders Electrostatics, Brian Cheney's (VMPS) live vs recorded demos (among others) have used the DCX2496 at shows I've attended and their systems were simply outstanding, literally the best sound of the show, beating systems costing ten times (or more if you count Wilson) as much. That's when I swallowed my anti-Behringer prejudices and bought one and never looked back. I am using the digital inputs using an optical to AES/EBU link straight out of my 24 bit streamer to minimize conversions and I've done the "fryng egg" mod. It is an aging design and is need of a replacement, but it can sound wonderful.
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I don't have an anit-Behringer prejudice. I've used several of their products mostly with very good results. I know that Sanders uses the DCX2496 mostly unmodified (I've spoken with Mr. Sanders directly about that at RMAF) and the sound they achieve is stellar - agreed. I was simply relating my own very recent experience with the DCX in and out of the circuit in my own personal system. I still use it, but only on the bass below 160 Hz. It is a very powerful tool. Perhaps if I were running digital in (instead of analog in) to the DCX I wouldn't experience the slight (but real) veiling of the upper frequency presentation. Or perhaps my unit (pretty old) is not functioning up to snuff?
AngelRa
Active Member
Found that the disastrous sound with the miniDSP was caused by a setting in the plug-in making out 1 and 2 be in mono and 1/2 of the input. I found by accident that output 3 and 4 are actually the main outputs and 1 and 2 are the secondary intended for LF (using the plug-in I have). This information is not easily found. It is only in one sentence in the description of the plug-in. After the fix it appears to sound good.
That prompted my curiosity for a casual A/B comparison with 2 other EQs. The Behringer DSP8024 and a Samson E62. Equipment used: Behringer Uphoria UMC202HD, HP467A amplifiers, and Vienna Acoustics Beethoven. The test was simple, set an A/B switch, "A" side was direct to the amps, "B" side was routed to the selected EQ. 2 volunteers with young ears were not told anything except a question "which one is better A or B?" They had no way to know what A or B was.
The assortment of music, selected by the 2 volunteers, included Mecano, Edith Piaf, Maria Callas, Nat King Cole, Irma Thomas, Wayne Newton, U2, Michael Jackson, Alberto Cortez, Creedence, Jim Croce, and Halsey.
Each volunteer tested without telling the other neither letting the other see nor listen. This is not a 100% fault proof approach, neither is definitive, I am sure that they tuned their ears song after song to favor A or B, but it is sufficient to get an idea of the difference between these devices.
Volunteer 1,... a young college graduate cellist:
1st test: Direct in A, miniDSP in B: Playing song after song constantly switching A/B... after every song,... "A sound better"...
2nd test: Direct in A, Behringer in B: Inconclusive, could not tell A from B. Sometimes it liked A sometimes B.
3rd test: Direct in A, Samson in B: Inconclusive again.
Volunteer 2,... a young engineering college student:
1st test: Direct in A, miniDSP in B: Playing song after song slowly switching A/B... some songs he stated they sounded the same, some songs A sounded better, B never sounded better...
2nd test: Direct in A, Behringer in B: Inconclusive, could not tell A from B. Never took a side. Stated "no difference"
3rd test: Direct in A, Samson in B: Inconclusive too.
Me,... an old engineer:
With the miniDSP I cound not hear any difference. It was until they described where to concentrate that I started to hear some difference, but still small and occasional. Volunteer 1 described it as a small reduction in depth or detail in the background layers of sound. Volunteer 2 described it as a small weakening in grunt or power. I believe the real difference was not in quality, it was volume, the miniDSP attenuates the signal a little bit.
That prompted my curiosity for a casual A/B comparison with 2 other EQs. The Behringer DSP8024 and a Samson E62. Equipment used: Behringer Uphoria UMC202HD, HP467A amplifiers, and Vienna Acoustics Beethoven. The test was simple, set an A/B switch, "A" side was direct to the amps, "B" side was routed to the selected EQ. 2 volunteers with young ears were not told anything except a question "which one is better A or B?" They had no way to know what A or B was.
The assortment of music, selected by the 2 volunteers, included Mecano, Edith Piaf, Maria Callas, Nat King Cole, Irma Thomas, Wayne Newton, U2, Michael Jackson, Alberto Cortez, Creedence, Jim Croce, and Halsey.
Each volunteer tested without telling the other neither letting the other see nor listen. This is not a 100% fault proof approach, neither is definitive, I am sure that they tuned their ears song after song to favor A or B, but it is sufficient to get an idea of the difference between these devices.
Volunteer 1,... a young college graduate cellist:
1st test: Direct in A, miniDSP in B: Playing song after song constantly switching A/B... after every song,... "A sound better"...
2nd test: Direct in A, Behringer in B: Inconclusive, could not tell A from B. Sometimes it liked A sometimes B.
3rd test: Direct in A, Samson in B: Inconclusive again.
Volunteer 2,... a young engineering college student:
1st test: Direct in A, miniDSP in B: Playing song after song slowly switching A/B... some songs he stated they sounded the same, some songs A sounded better, B never sounded better...
2nd test: Direct in A, Behringer in B: Inconclusive, could not tell A from B. Never took a side. Stated "no difference"
3rd test: Direct in A, Samson in B: Inconclusive too.
Me,... an old engineer:
With the miniDSP I cound not hear any difference. It was until they described where to concentrate that I started to hear some difference, but still small and occasional. Volunteer 1 described it as a small reduction in depth or detail in the background layers of sound. Volunteer 2 described it as a small weakening in grunt or power. I believe the real difference was not in quality, it was volume, the miniDSP attenuates the signal a little bit.
audiomagnate
Addicted Member
"I believe the real difference was not in quality, it was volume, the miniDSP attenuates the signal a little bit."
Precise level matching in A/B testing is crucial.
Precise level matching in A/B testing is crucial.
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
Absolutely, even tuning/voicing with old school analog 1/3rd octave EQ`s...