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ML with McIntosh

miner

Super Member
I am currently using some Dynaudio 52SE (with Stand4 stands) & Sub20A with my C2200/MC252 - Rega P7 is my source. I am looking to upgrade speakers and was looking for some users who have Martin Logan ESLs with their Mc equipment. The models I am contemplating are Vantage and Spire. I would like to get away from using a sub so the Spire is probably my best choice. All opinions welcomed. Thanks.
 
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I am currently using some Dynaudio 52SE (with Stand4 stands) & Sub20A with my C2200/MC252 - Rega P7 is my source. I am looking to upgrade speakers and was looking for some users who have Martin Logan ESLs with their Mc equipment. The models I am contemplating are Vantage and Spire. I would like to get away from using a sub so the Spire is probably my best choice. All opinions welcomed. Thanks.
The MC252, while a near-perfect amp for the Dynaudio line of speakers, would not be my choice for driving electrostats. It will work fine, no problems; but if you're contemplating an electrostat, especially the new generation ML, you should consider a Mac tube amp, like the MC275 I have driving my ML CLS's (see system). My opinion is that tube amps are magic with electrostats; as long as the tube amp will not have to drive the woofers too (as it did in the hybrid Martin Logans of the past.) As long as you buy one of the late-model MartinLogan speakers (with built-in solid state powered wooofer sections) you'll be fine if you decide to go with a tube amp (eventually :yes:.) You might still need to add a true subwoofer (like a ML Depth) if you want to enjoy the very lowest registers (like pipe organs, etc.)
 
I'm one of the first people to own Martin Logan speakers. They tend to work really well with tubes and a select group of solid state amps not made by mcintosh.

I use an exotic amp which is no longer made --- and it doesnt have an output transformer.

BTW it is purely my opinion but speakers which produce low bass should not be in the same enclosure as a panel. It is easier to optimize the sound with subwoofers.

So I can get my CLS to sound better than the speakers you contemplate since I can optimize the subwoofer system separately.

Dont try this at home though...Spires are much better for the average joe than CLS.
 
I have heard Martin Logans sound very well with the MC402. Have not heard the MC252 with them but they sound very similiar.
 
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One of the unique things about this hobby is that everyone hears differently and has a slightly different opinion about what sounds good!

I generally prefer tube amps and have used them exclusively for many years. When I bought my Spires I used my MC275 for about 6 months but the sound was never really fully satisfying to me. The highs were muted, the bass was a bit loose and it did not have the dynamic capabilities that I knew the Spires were capable of. Even though I don't listen loud (80 - 85db typically) the 275 would get congested on complex passages.

After some research, I bought a MC402. With this amp in the system, I was able to retain all the midrange presence, transparency and smoothness that I love about tubes. But I am now getting better treble and bass with greater overall dynamics. Even loud, complex passages are fully worked out with no congestion.

Note that the impedance of the Spires dips very low in the treble, so it is important to have an amp that is up to the task or else the speakers can sound muted or veiled on top.

The improved bass was a bit of a puzzler to me given the Spires have built in bass amplifiers. But after talking with some folks more knowlegable than I, what I learned was that even though the 275 does not drive the woofers, it does pass the bass signal through it and that signal is not as clean and tight as with the solid state amp. (I don't know if that is a correct engineering answer, but it made sense to me!)

So my advice if you get the Spires is don't change your amp yet. Try the 252 because you might really like the combination. One more thing, check out the review Jeff Dorgay did of the Spires (and the CLX) in Tone Audio. He specifically mentions that the 275 is not the best match for the new ML speakers. He does however recommend the 252 as a good match as well as the Conrad Johnson 350.

So with all due respect to the other posters, my experience with the Spires has been different. And the good news is that you might just really like the combination with your current electronics. The Spires are great speakers and are really hard to beat in their price range. Good luck!
 
I an using a 275 mk6 with Vantages and while the extreme top end MAY be a bit rolled off I enjoy the sound very much. At 20 khz where the Vantage drops to 1 ohm there is virtually no music and very few adults can hear up that high
 
I think Dave nailed it. I used a 352 on my Vantage for a while and a very short while on the Spire. I upgraded to the 501's and never looked back. I did try a pair of 275's before I decided and preferred the 501's.

On another note, once you experience an ESL and set them up correctly, you may find it difficult to return to a box speaker.

Gordon
 
Martin Logans with Mcintosh amps is really a beautiful and non-fatiguing sound and at the same time detailed. I can see it both ways, tube or solid state. My wife shops for purses when we go on vacation. I shop for audio. I remember when we were in New York and my wife heard the MC402 with the Martin Logan Summits. She loved the sound. It kind of just stopped her in her tracks. She ignored everything else on that trip.
 
I also use the MC402 with my summits. I origionaly used the 205 amp with my Vantages which worked well together. Then purchased the Summits and the 205 did not quite cut it. The 402's are perfect.
 
Wrat, what is a 275 mk6? You're making me nervous!

A Mcintosh (or any decent) tube amp will deliver a PERFECTLY ACCURATE, "clean and tight" bass frequency signal to current model ML speakers' ss bass amps. Inductance sensors in the speakers simply "listen-in" on the signal. What a tube amp won't do (as well as an ss amp,) is power and control that woofer. But in the new ML hybrids, it's not being asked to do that . . . . . is it! ML finally came to their senses after 20 years and provided the market with a "pre-biamped" hybrid electrostat. Thanks guys! Better late than never!

dneumann indicates TFK's in his C2300, but not what tubes are/were in his MC275. "Congested" sounds to me like a 'tube thing' and/or possibly speaker cables with way too much capacitance for stats (Cardas?). I also question why you give an ex-commercial photographer, with only a consumer's understanding of audio, any credibility? As a publisher, he gets lots of equipment to photograph, and play with, and yet he honestly thinks the "old days" of audio was 1983! Give me a break.

Here are the two reasons why (almost) all tube amps (OK, and a few 5-figure ss amps) bring out the best in electrostatic speakers; to paraphrase Steve Hoffman and Bill Clinton, "It's the midrange stupid!" and, it always follows that great midrange goes hand in hand with a solid, well-defined soundstage. Electrostatic speaker panels can reproduce the phase detail in a music signal with uncanny accuracy (assuming the speaker cables and the amp can deliver what the source and preamp send them.) It's the interaction (in the room) of phase-accurate sound waves that produces midrange presence and defined instrument locations. Solid state amps have a problem with this unless they employ carefully matched power output transistors (darTZeel, Boulder, anyone??) But tube amps do it like falling off a log. You don't really even need matched power tubes -- just ask McIntosh (to be fair, the Unity Coupled Circuit makes tube matching and even tube biasing of minor importance :yes:)

And even with a very pricey Class A solid state amp, you need more watts to drive a stat with the same precision as a lower powered tube amp. Why? Because thinking all watts are the same is a mistake young souls continue to make. Watts is NOT Watts! A watt is a product of current times voltage. You can therefore increase one while decreasing the other and still come out with the same number of watts. Relatively speaking, tube amps have a larger amount of current in each watt of output while ss amps a larger amount of voltage. That makes each type of amp better suited to satisfying the particular KIND (not amount) of power needed by different kinds of speakers; tubes for current--hungry electostats; and solid state for voltage-hungry electrodynamic (voicecoil) speakers.

Although ever since solid state came about there have been attempts to blend the two within a sigle amplifier, there are now (finally!) several serious products that attempt to do just that. To name three, the Lamm 1.2 and 2.2, Moscode 402 AU, and the new Aesthetics Atlas reviewed in Jan. Stereophile. Here's how they work: "Great--Sonics--Central" for any amplifier -- scratch that -- any system, is the input stage (or gain stage) of the amplifier (and not the power output stage as so many believe.) So why not make the input stage out of (signal preserving) tubes, and the output stage solid state? Well, the answer is that it's hard to get little 9-pin signal tubes to control power output transistors. The Lamms are Class A and use ONE vacuum tube in their input stage. The other two use a few. You can in fact get input transistors to control power output tubes fairly easily, but who'd want to do that? Answer: Audio Research, and it was a dismal failure!

Thank heaven this thread is about electrostats, or I'd catch hell for going off topic! I have used a few different amps with my CLS's over the last 20 years. SS and tube. All top of the line. The unbeatable (certainly by any ss amp with autoformer output :D) Mark Levinson 23.5, a pair of monster 300W ARC monoblocks, and now my MC275 Mk4. I could never understand (back when I too listened to "folks more knowlegable than I") why my great ARC M300 Mk2 300 watt/ch monoblocks didn't knock my socks off like tube amps and stats are supposed to. Years later, I learned they had FET solid state gain stages (front ends) -- the last place in a system you want transistors!!

Besides having lots of current in each watt to lavish on electrostats, the MC275 has a current--controlled (as opposed to voltage-controlled) output stage. This happens because of the Unity Coupled Circuit I mentioned earlier, a good thing for stats I think, but something Frank McIntosh probably didn't even consider, since there weren't any stats back then!!
 
Hi Nsgarch,

I used Genelex Gold Lion reissue KT88, Telefunken 12AX7 and Siemens 12AT7 in my 275 mkV. They sounded better than the stock tubes. I also used Mapleshade, Nordost and Cardas speaker wires.

My previous speakers were Quad 2805 and the 275 sounded wonderful with them. So I am fully aware of the virtues of tubes with electrostats.

I'm sure you know what you are talking about with your post on amplifiers and your technical explanations go beyond my comprehension, but all I know is what I hear. The 275 is not the best match for the Spires in my system. It sounds congested, especially on complex passages. The music looses some detail, is not as open sounding, and things get a little muddled. And the bass is better with the solid state amp. It baffled me too, but that is what I hear.

So back to my original post and I encourage miner to at least try the 252 with Spires before he spends more $$ on a tube amp. That's my only point here.
 
Thanks for all of the comments. I will go listen more to the Spires. I have no plans of replacing my MC252 with a tube amp. I am looking for a full range speaker to work with what I currently have. I am happy with my current speakers but would like to get away form sub/monitor layout.
 
I am using a MC252 amplifier with ML Vantage speakers. I tried the MC402 amplifier but didn't hear much difference at all from the MC252. Try yourself to hear a significant difference between the two amps, I couldn't. Anyways, I have used the ML Vantage/MC252 combination for a couple yrs. and am extremely satisfied. Very good synergy between the MC252/ML Vantage speakers in MHO.
Jim
 
Hi Nsgarch,

I used Genelex Gold Lion reissue KT88, Telefunken 12AX7 and Siemens 12AT7 in my 275 mkV. They sounded better than the stock tubes. I also used Mapleshade, Nordost and Cardas speaker wires. My previous speakers were Quad 2805 and the 275 sounded wonderful with them. So I am fully aware of the virtues of tubes with electrostats. I'm sure you know what you are talking about with your post on amplifiers and your technical explanations go beyond my comprehension, but all I know is what I hear. The 275 is not the best match for the Spires in my system. It sounds congested, especially on complex passages. The music looses some detail, is not as open sounding, and things get a little muddled. And the bass is better with the solid state amp. It baffled me too, but that is what I hear. So back to my original post and I encourage miner to at least try the 252 with Spires before he spends more $$ on a tube amp. That's my only point here.
Dave, please don't think I question your report or experience(s). But I'm one of those people that believes there is an underlying scientific reason (physics, electronics, mechanics, chemistry, etc) behind all we experience in our "manifest reality." So when an audiophile reports results that seem to me totally unexpected for the equipment/setup, I want to find out why. I too "believe what I hear" (good or bad) but when I read, "The 275 is not the best match for the Spires in my system" (or the Summits, or the Vantages -- all of which comments I've heard at some point) then for a couple of reasons of my own, I just can't let it go at that;

First, I feel that limited listening experiences that lead to negative conclusions, no matter how well intended, or how honestly described and disclaimed, can truly "poison the waters"; people tend to give credibility to 'ear'witness accounts in audio, often because they lack sufficient technical understanding to say to themselves, "Wait a minute! This just doesn't add up." or, "This isn't what I heard when I listened to the same setup. This doesn't sound right to me." Instead, they just accept what a customer, reviewer, or salesperson puts out there without question. And so they'll likely not "waste their time" listening to a combo that's received negative comments from an 'ear'witness.

Second, when something makes no sense to me scientifically, I just have to get to the bottom of it. An audio Sherlock :yes: Even a person with minimum technical knowledge of these things could say, "Well, here is a fairly conventional push-pull tube amp, and two conventional and similar electrostatic panels, and one sounds great with the amp and one sounds crappy? Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? No.

So before rejecting one of the world's most forgiving and neutral tube amps ever, I'd want to try it myself. You seem to have already considered the usual "congestion" suspects (tubes,) and I assume you are using balanced connection to the amp? Speakercable, not so great. The Nordost is the only one of the three with acceptably low capacitance, but it has other issues, so that still leaves the amp/speaker hookup (in my book anyway.) I've personally heard Summits and Vantages just sing with one or two 275's. They don't seem that different from Spires in their construction and specs. So first I'd go to Home Depot for some insulated 10AWG solid copper 'speaker' wire, which I know will be problem--free with stats. Then I'd try both single-run and bi-wire connections, and with each of those, I'd try the 4 and the 8 ohm speaker taps (the Quads and the ML's have quite differently shaped impedance curves.)

Both amps should turn in great performances when auditioned side-by-side. The only thing miner should have to decide is which of the two provides the kind of listening experience he desires.

Neil
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