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Modern Speakers vs Vintage?

SR 71 was difficult and expensive to make because of the heat it produced within its operating envelope. No other aircraft came close.

Amazing discussions. Opinions are verboten? I see the two types of speakers New vs Vintage as two entirely different paths to the same destination. Like a vintage car vs a 60s car: One is smaller safer, more efficient, the other has style and warmth. One is a hug, the other is a slap in the face.
 
People romanticize vintage equipment. I mean, they say, 'I remember first hearing this piece when I was younger'. They have a history, so they remember earlier and it is a powerful draw and emotion on what is good or not.

I completely agree. It's prescription, rose colored, time traveling glasses. My feelings about antique cars is about the same. 4 wheel drum brakes, gear box steering, cast iron blocks with push rods, and live axles on leaf springs inspires about as much affection and longing as a colonoscopy. Likewise, particleboard cabinets, paper cone tweeters, stamped steel driver frames, spring loaded binding posts, and 15 inch woofers don't impress me too much. I have fond memories of the concerts I went to as a teen, but I'd much rather hear a live show on the kinds of sound rigs out there these days.
 
hmm - then people who own IMF speakers must have crappy sounding speakers, based on your opinion.

I thought IMFs sounded kind'a crappy, especially the bass which I thought was mushy and distorted. I'm talking about my impressions of them when they were new: I haven't heard them since the 1970s. I thought the Fried speakers were far superior to the IMFs, especially the Model H which was very impressive.
 
People romanticize vintage equipment. I mean, they say, 'I remember first hearing this piece when I was younger'. They have a history, so they remember earlier and it is a powerful draw and emotion on what is good or not.

I remember buying my vintage stuff new when I was younger, and I've been listening to it ever since. So I definitely have history with it.
 
I guess "vintage" is difficult to define, some will say '80s, some '50s, even '90s is vintage to some.

There were many well-made and great sounding speakers, and just being new doesn't make them great. In fact I think all of us could point to several new and recent model speakers that are crap. What makes a great speaker great, is its sound, not its age. If you are looking at TOTL speakers from the '80s (for example), many of them will hold up well to speakers of equal value today. Compare what you can buy with maybe $3k new or used today, there are some very nice choices, provided the used are in proper condition some of them will be hard to beat at that price point. Consider also that some of those will be high-end from the '80s (or whatever era you choose) and are made of some pretty good furniture-grade finishes.

Now compare an '80s TOTL speaker to a 2021 TOTL speaker, you're talking six-figures of difference in price, ... not going to compare in performance.

I don't see complete agreement ever happening on something that's clearly a matter of taste and preference, but as I've read many times in these 18 pages, ... enjoy what you enjoy.
 
I guess "vintage" is difficult to define, some will say '80s, some '50s, even '90s is vintage to some.

There were many well-made and great sounding speakers, and just being new doesn't make them great. In fact I think all of us could point to several new and recent model speakers that are crap. What makes a great speaker great, is its sound, not its age. If you are looking at TOTL speakers from the '80s (for example), many of them will hold up well to speakers of equal value today. Compare what you can buy with maybe $3k new or used today, there are some very nice choices, provided the used are in proper condition some of them will be hard to beat at that price point. Consider also that some of those will be high-end from the '80s (or whatever era you choose) and are made of some pretty good furniture-grade finishes.

Now compare an '80s TOTL speaker to a 2021 TOTL speaker, you're talking six-figures of difference in price, ... not going to compare in performance.

I don't see complete agreement ever happening on something that's clearly a matter of taste and preference, but as I've read many times in these 18 pages, ... enjoy what you enjoy.

I'm willing to stretch today's definition of "vintage" up into the 90's mainly because the 90's we're pretty much the last hurrah for "British", "West Coast", and "New England" sound. Many companies that clung to those paradigms went bust as the world of audio zero'd in on flat response. Speakers made past 2010 are judged by different, and in my estimation, higher standards. They must be relatively flat since most high end electronics today don't have tone controls. They need to produce high quality 3D images. They need to be extremely well built with quality materials. There's no way you could sell something as ugly as an Advent speaker today. If you showed up to an audio show with a speaker made out of particle board, you'd be laughed out of the place. Speakers can't be one trick genre ponies anymore. I really believe that today more than ever before is the golden age of hifi because technology has never been less of a limiting factor. When people question whether today's speakers are really better, I can't help but wonder what they've been listening to because I've heard a number of modern speakers for relatively reasonable prices that nothing at ANY price from 30 years ago could compare to. The amount of quality you can buy today for a given sum is unparalleled.
 
If flat is your only measure, you can stop at 1980s monitors, be they JBL or Yamaha, ... flat is flat no matter which side of the country builds them. I know, the "West Coast" vs "New England", install and measure a few thousand pair and I"m sure you'll find that flat is flat.

Imaging, time alignment, phase coherance, cone breakup modes, none of these things were discovered nor invented post-'80s, I was designing electronic circuits on CAD in the '80s as were my coworkers designing mechanical assemblies. There were modal analyses, FEA, analysis of everything from wave propogation to strength of materials and natural frequency. And it was accurate.

I'm sure that global climate change has had a profoud effect on how sound is produced and how it travels over the past 30 years and has changed how we need to design speakers, or not.

Ears have not changed, air has not, although speaker technology has evolved. Pulp speakers with aquaplas with edge-wound ribbon coils has changed to pulp speakers with aquaplas and edge-wound ribbon, aluminum and titanium diaphragms with foam damping material have changed to aluminum and titanium diaphragms, some with aquaplas-type damping, film caps have changed to film caps, and copper wound inductors have changed to copper wound inductors. Vast and sweeping changes in materials.

There were carbon-fiber cones, poly cones, reinforced poly cones, ceramic-composite cones, all in the '80s I believe as I have (or have had) examples of each. Satellite-subwoofer systems existed, good ones. If you get a chance to talk to some of the great speaker Designers from the '90s I'd like to be a fly on the wall, hearing some of the great speaker critics of this forum quickly reach the limits of their knowledge and experience. None of this stuff was unknown when they designed speakers.

One thing that has changed since the '80s is the ability for a homeowner to buy and operate measurement and adjustment devices. One can now buy a calibrated mic, software/freeware, and a parametric/digital equalization that allows us to adjust any response to completely flat and even correct phase-distortion (but not doppler-based) in our audio systems.

Another thing that has changed substantially is music. In the '80s we started to see digital-sourced music, that 90dB dynamic range that became available on the CD format, with response frequencies down near DC/Zero. That taxed audio systems to create huge powerful dynamic peaks that previously were only in live music. I remember Flimm and the BBs mastering on digital media, which became the every booth at CES. A lower power system or cheap speakers would completely choke trying to reproduce some of that stuff, ... but when it played well it was amazing to hear and feel. Electronic music has gone a long way from Freebird or Frankenstein to Deadmau5 and others, playing BT to demonstrate in 2000 was as impactful as anything prior (and one can now actually come close to the Telarc 1812 Overture cannon blasts).

Regardless, painting vintage vs new as an evolution is accurate. Using the same broad brush to say that there is nothing from the '90s and before that can produce exquisite sound quality IMO is not accurate. Being specific and saying that "AR3 are not able to properly reproduce xyz music because it: isn't able to produce the dynamic range, has too much phase-shift at crossover frequencies, doesn't go low/high enough, isn't flat enough, ..." might be accurate (just a hypothetical example, no AR3 owners were harmed). OTOH, playing 1970s music on the same speakers might be reproduced just as the artist and Mixing Engineer intended it and there isn't program material on the master that the speaker can't reproduce.

Enjoy whatever speakers you have, modern and vintage, there are good and bad examples of each. In engineering there is always the theoretically perfect, and what actually works. Many of the modern designs that are built after the designer has read a few books and taken some classes but doesn't have a lifetime of real-world experience are only good on paper, and can sound pretty much like crap. I used to be that spec-chasing guy listening to the equipment instead of the music also, ... we get over it.
 
There's no way you could sell something as ugly as an Advent speaker today. If you showed up to an audio show with a speaker made out of particle board, you'd be laughed out of the place. Speakers can't be one trick genre ponies anymore. I really believe that today more than ever before is the golden age of hifi because technology has never been less of a limiting factor. When people question whether today's speakers are really better, I can't help but wonder what they've been listening to because I've heard a number of modern speakers for relatively reasonable prices that nothing at ANY price from 30 years ago could compare to. The amount of quality you can buy today for a given sum is unparalleled.

The aesthetic argument is invalid as far as I am concerned as styles in every aspect of life have changed since the ‘70s. Advents weren’t “ugly” in their day and shouldn’t be judged with a 2021 lens. Some of us think tall and skinny speakers aren’t aesthetically pleasing.

Not everything built with today’s technology is necessarily an improvement. As a side note, my brother-in-law recently purchased a Marantz 30 integrated amp from Crutchfield. While not the most expensive piece of equipment, it did set him back more than $2,600. It sounded like crap playing numerous genres of music from different sources through both modern and vintage speakers. He sent it back, while his Sansui 8080 remains... To each their own. I don’t deal in absolutes.
 
Now compare an '80s TOTL speaker to a 2021 TOTL speaker, you're talking six-figures of difference in price, ... not going to compare in performance.

I doubt that this is a comparison that the vast majority of people actually trying to buy speakers is ever going to make. For most of us, the comparison isn't going to be between TOTL, but between TOTB (top of the budget). For me, vintage vs new is always going to be between what vintage I can buy (and restore, if need be) and what new I can buy for the same amount of money.

A pair of speakers that sells for six figures is something I'd barely bother to read about, and would never go listen to. If it turned out they sounded better than anything I had ever heard before, it would just depress me. Not going to risk it.
 
I'm in the same place with cars. Probably more so. Not much risk of my audio system being stolen out of a supermarket parking lot while I'm shopping or some drunken idiot T-boning it. My 30-50-year-old audio gear is probably worth more in resale than my 18-year old hatchback.
 
The aesthetic argument is invalid as far as I am concerned as styles in every aspect of life have changed since the ‘70s. Advents weren’t “ugly” in their day and shouldn’t be judged with a 2021 lens. Some of us think tall and skinny speakers aren’t aesthetically pleasing.

Not everything built with today’s technology is necessarily an improvement. As a side note, my brother-in-law recently purchased a Marantz 30 integrated amp from Crutchfield. While not the most expensive piece of equipment, it did set him back more than $2,600. It sounded like crap playing numerous genres of music from different sources through both modern and vintage speakers. He sent it back, while his Sansui 8080 remains... To each their own. I don’t deal in absolutes.

Man, a LOT of 60's and 70's speakers were just damn ugly by any standard. That Advents, with their expanded steel glued on grills over that hideous tweeter were just the first to come to mind. That kind of workmanship NEEDED grills to hide that nobody gave a hoot at all.

Beyond that though, those people knew they were building speakers with all kinds of problems. Edge diffraction wasn't unknown, yet they still built speakers with huge, sharp corners at the edges of enormous baffles. Speakers aren't just tall, narrow things for the look. It's of serious practical utility for the purpose of reducing edge diffraction effects.
 
Oh, just don't complain about speakers made of plywood with the laminated edges showing, those Klipsch guys can find you!
 
The first ARs looked like they were made in a middle school shop class. They are stunningly crude and unfinished. Almost like they were saying "Take it or Leave it". The later ARs, 10s,11s,12s and beyond were nicely done and very attractive. I think that the large Advents are beautiful in a very utilitarian way. I can remember what HF gear looked like in the 50s and anything was attractive by comparison. I have no complaints about veneered particle board, it probably works a lot better than solid cherry or some exotic. I think that the small modern speakers are ugly. I'm talking about the speakers the size of a 12 pack of beer and the pyramid style. Just because they cost more doesn't make them right. When I was younger, I bought a book on speaker design and made a few sets, all about the same size as the old ARs. Used components from Radio Shack, usually two way with crossovers. Most were Bass Reflex, a few Acoustic Suspension. A $12 8" woofer didn't have a lot of cone excursion I'm sure. It would be fun to try it again using high quality expensive parts.
 
I have both. The modern are more detailed and accurate. The vintage is actually more enjoyable to listen to though. Quite possibly because the vintage are much larger. :dunno:
 
I find this an interesting topic and thread. As the owner of lots of vintage and modern gear, I really enjoy listening to both. As previously mentioned, there are good and bad examples of each. In all honesty, my vintage gear sounds really good but my main system can floor me. Cost be damned, modern rules.

My youngest daughter has recently showed an interest in audio, particularly vinyl. I was shopping around with her looking for a turntable at one of the few vintage audio stores around me. We went in and began browsing through the used albums. A classic rock station was playing in the background and when Boston’s “Don’t Look Back” began playing she looked at me and said, “that sounds really good!”. I agreed. It was a vintage Sansui quad receiver playing through a pair of Boston Acoustics A100’s. I asked the guy what he was asking for them, he said $150. Not sure there is much out there in a modern speaker for $150 that would sound any better?
 
I find this an interesting topic and thread. As the owner of lots of vintage and modern gear, I really enjoy listening to both. As previously mentioned, there are good and bad examples of each. In all honesty, my vintage gear sounds really good but my main system can floor me. Cost be damned, modern rules.

My youngest daughter has recently showed an interest in audio, particularly vinyl. I was shopping around with her looking for a turntable at one of the few vintage audio stores around me. We went in and began browsing through the used albums. A classic rock station was playing in the background and when Boston’s “Don’t Look Back” began playing she looked at me and said, “that sounds really good!”. I agreed. It was a vintage Sansui quad receiver playing through a pair of Boston Acoustics A100’s. I asked the guy what he was asking for them, he said $150. Not sure there is much out there in a modern speaker for $150 that would sound any better?

I'm going to venture a guess that such a level of sound quality is only worth $150 regardless of the speaker's age. I paid $500 for my first gen ESS AMT1's which is reasonable for their sound quality regardless of age. I listened to several modern AMT type speakers and the AMT1's held their own for a little less money than new speakers.

Having heard many models from Boston Acoustics, I'm not surprised they're out of business or that their speakers are going for modest sums. At the same time, I'm stunned by the audacity of ESS to ask four FREAKING grand (!?!?!?) for the modern AMT1's.
 
I'm going to venture a guess that such a level of sound quality is only worth $150 regardless of the speaker's age. I paid $500 for my first gen ESS AMT1's which is reasonable for their sound quality regardless of age. I listened to several modern AMT type speakers and the AMT1's held their own for a little less money than new speakers.

Having heard many models from Boston Acoustics, I'm not surprised they're out of business or that their speakers are going for modest sums. At the same time, I'm stunned by the audacity of ESS to ask four FREAKING grand (!?!?!?) for the modern AMT1's.

Boston’s are real sleepers. It shocks me that they don’t actually command more. I have owned various Boston’s since the early ‘80s and they deliver quite nicely. I have an expensive pair of Silverlines that have nothing over my A200s.
 
Most of the vintage speakers that people still discuss and use are models that have stood the test of time. Speakers that are enjoyable and appealing regardless of where they rank on a "best speakers" list. There are countless other speakers that have come out over the years that have since faded into the abyss of history where they belong because there was really nothing great or memorable about them.

I really don't see anyone on this forum claiming that vintage is better than modern in general. Really it's mainly people just talking about good speakers that they enjoy, some of which are vintage.

On the other hand I do notice a select minority who seem to have some sort of grudge or vendetta against vintage. Many of these people seem firmly committed to the new-gear treadmill. New speakers are released and over-hyped as the best thing since sliced-bread, only to be forgotten a few years later once the next model lineup is released. Their speakers aren't the new-hotness anymore, so that means it's time to buy new speakers again. Someone actually keeping and enjoying the same pair of speakers for several decades is the complete anti-thesis to how these people engage in their quest for audio perfection. The rest of us are just busy enjoying the music, without the gear treadmill.
 
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