Chris Brown
Super Member
Do you feel that labeling others in such a manner is a prerequisite to the question that was proposed?
Modern Speakers vs Vintage?
- Thread starter ultumax
- Start date
Do you feel that labeling others in such a manner is a prerequisite to the question that was proposed?
Porkloin
Oscar Heil Groupie
We don't disagree entirely. At my price point, my own example defied my initial statement. But if I were willing to spend a little more on vintage gear (I'll only drop so much into electronics of questionable age with no warranty), I'd have to spend a lot more to best it with modern.
Wanting the most for the money you're able to shell out hardly weighs down the debate. Cost is an unavoidable factor in the real world. If it wasn't, we'd all have that great new stuff.
gkimeng
Forum Mod, ClassicSpeakerPages.net
The biggest difference I see between vintage and modern speakers is that vintage speakers have personalities. They look different, and most especially they sound different. This is because they were designed by people who had different ideas about how they should look and sound.
By comparison, most modern speakers are not supposed to have personalities. They are styled to consumer focus panel surveys and designed to fairly uniform standards based on double blind listening tests, so within a given price range they have a tendency to look and sound enough alike that you could probably swap the logos and fool people. Because if two speakers with "flat" response don't sound the same, someone's not doing it right.
So with vintage, you can shop around and listen for the speaker that appeals to your personal preferences in style and sound...but you also have to. While with modern, once you figure out how much you want to budget for your speakers, you can probably buy them by mail without even listening to them first and still have a pretty good idea what you're going to get.
Which is better? Hell if I know. I only know what I prefer.
By comparison, most modern speakers are not supposed to have personalities. They are styled to consumer focus panel surveys and designed to fairly uniform standards based on double blind listening tests, so within a given price range they have a tendency to look and sound enough alike that you could probably swap the logos and fool people. Because if two speakers with "flat" response don't sound the same, someone's not doing it right.
So with vintage, you can shop around and listen for the speaker that appeals to your personal preferences in style and sound...but you also have to. While with modern, once you figure out how much you want to budget for your speakers, you can probably buy them by mail without even listening to them first and still have a pretty good idea what you're going to get.
Which is better? Hell if I know. I only know what I prefer.
Yes, only after one has been able to figure out what the truly great new stuff was or more likely, we'd be so busy having fun traveling exotic places too busy to listen to the great new stuff we were $able$ to purchase.
Of couse I'm speaking only for myself
Kingshead
Professor
Here's a set of vintage speakers that only a handful of moderns have a chance of not being thoroughly embarassed by.
Technology has come a long way, but the hype around modern small speakers being Sooooooo great is comical, great small speakers have been around for decades.
So, by vintage exactly where is the cutoff point, 10yrs, 20, 30, 50 or more? I say, bring someone who only knows modern to hear a set of Bozak Concert Grands and watch their jaws drop. Sure there are great moderns that will also astound the ears, but it's not because they're new, it's all in the design goal the price point allows.
Technology has come a long way, but the hype around modern small speakers being Sooooooo great is comical, great small speakers have been around for decades.
So, by vintage exactly where is the cutoff point, 10yrs, 20, 30, 50 or more? I say, bring someone who only knows modern to hear a set of Bozak Concert Grands and watch their jaws drop. Sure there are great moderns that will also astound the ears, but it's not because they're new, it's all in the design goal the price point allows.
chadnliz
Addicted Member
Here's a set of vintage speakers that only a handful of moderns have a chance of not being thoroughly embarassed by.
Technology has come a long way, but the hype around modern small speakers being Sooooooo great is comical, great small speakers have been around for decades.
So, by vintage exactly where is the cutoff point, 10yrs, 20, 30, 50 or more? I say, bring someone who only knows modern to hear a set of Bozak Concert Grands and watch their jaws drop. Sure there are great moderns that will also astound the ears, but it's not because they're new, it's all in the design goal the price point allows.
So how many vintage speakers are "embarrassed" by those Genesis (right?) in the pic then? As for your final thought since you removed price as the barrier it would be fair to say that if cost were no object the best speakers of today would beat cost no object of 25+ years ago correct?
Modern wins again! Not sure why its controversial to know that with advances in time and technology that in most all situations modern QUALITY products are just better. Cheaper isn't better, its just more obtainable.
A 1990 F150 is certainly vintage, it does the same basic function as a 2015 model does, and its vastly easier to afford and yet I find it hard to believe anyone would say the 1990 truck is as good or better than the 2015 but in bizarro world speakers for many seem to defy the laws of reason.
Kingshead
Professor
This is the problem with modern designs: manufacturers are using new technologies to build inferior designs that sound good, but the dodgy build quality means it won't when they are vintage.
As for your truck analogy, how many of today's modern cars will still be around 50 yrs from now. How many late 80's- 90's cars are still around. Building cars with beer can thick sheet metal and plastic isn't a recipe for longevity. How about a frame off resto, modern cars don't have frames. Sure the motors are more reliable, that just means consumers can neglect them longer.
Ripped the piece of shite 200hp, fuel injected, 12mpg, 350 that died at 150,000 out of my 1996 Z71. Replaced it with a 400hp, 20 yr older rebuilt carbureted 350, still 12mpg and now had the power to get out of its own way. New tech doesn't always equate to "better", more likely just higher profits for the manufacturer.
If manufacturers used new tech as a method for better quality along with more profits then new would always win, sadly this is not usually the case.
Oh, and the vintage speakers pictured above were made by Infinity, Arnie later founded Genisis and why they look so similar.
Speaking of Infinity, this is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Arnie's design phylosophy carried over to Genisis, and why their products were so great, not so much for Infinity once Harmon International got their hands on the company. Harmon with all their capital decided to take Infinity in another direction and why their new products aren't held in the same regard as the vintage. With all the newer tech Infinity could still be a leader in the industry, but it's more profitable to build low quality budget speakers.
As for your truck analogy, how many of today's modern cars will still be around 50 yrs from now. How many late 80's- 90's cars are still around. Building cars with beer can thick sheet metal and plastic isn't a recipe for longevity. How about a frame off resto, modern cars don't have frames. Sure the motors are more reliable, that just means consumers can neglect them longer.
Ripped the piece of shite 200hp, fuel injected, 12mpg, 350 that died at 150,000 out of my 1996 Z71. Replaced it with a 400hp, 20 yr older rebuilt carbureted 350, still 12mpg and now had the power to get out of its own way. New tech doesn't always equate to "better", more likely just higher profits for the manufacturer.
If manufacturers used new tech as a method for better quality along with more profits then new would always win, sadly this is not usually the case.
Oh, and the vintage speakers pictured above were made by Infinity, Arnie later founded Genisis and why they look so similar.
Speaking of Infinity, this is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Arnie's design phylosophy carried over to Genisis, and why their products were so great, not so much for Infinity once Harmon International got their hands on the company. Harmon with all their capital decided to take Infinity in another direction and why their new products aren't held in the same regard as the vintage. With all the newer tech Infinity could still be a leader in the industry, but it's more profitable to build low quality budget speakers.
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JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Those are Infinity IRS-V's. They are pretty much considered to be vintage and among the best sounding ever made. There's not many "modern" speakers that are better. However, in general I'm inclined to agree that modern is better.
pete_mac
Super Member
Dodgy build quality and inferior designs? That's a incredible blanket statement to make.
Driver technology and build quality has never been better. There are some truly excellent speaker enclosures being designed and manufactured. Crossover design and component quality is the best it has ever been.
Even some of the cheaper Chinese-made drivers are built to standards and tolerances that would make many vintage manufacturers weep.
Yes, there are some modern turds out there... but there are just as many vintage turds which sound very very average indeed.
The car analogy is an interesting one, and doesn't really hold true with speakers IMHO. The reliability aspect is a non-issue with respect to speakers, and you'd be absolutely bonkers to replace modern drivers with old drivers. It would be like throwing cross-ply tyres in a modern car.
Look further afield than Infinity. Yes, they once were a great speaker company, but in the modern era there are countless superb speaker manufacturers out there offering incredible sounding gear which is well and truly ahead of all but the very, very best vintage gear (IMHO of course) :thmbsp:
pete_mac
Super Member
Very true. It's a polarising topic! :thmbsp:
chadnliz
Addicted Member
Yes but that engine came out of a car that probably rusted out around it
and the engine was rebuilt so I'm not really sure you have a valid point.
My parents tell stories of knowing it was time to buy a new car when its factory tires needed replaced as the car started falling apart, in the mid 80's when I started driving a 100, 000 mile car was the beaters we bought, people use to ask has it been "flipped" cause at 100, 000 miles it was universally considered near death, we bought these cars for $200 to $500 all day long.
Fast forward to today and that fear of 100, 000 miles is long gone, I see people routinely with cars that still run great with much more miles.
While the IRS is considered one of the all time greats I bet a couple modern offering can compete with them in a much more usable package....even if none exists they are not cheap so even most vintage guys would still scoff at the price to own them.
We just do not agree on this.... no worries.
Must be quite a view from that high ground .
This argument will never be solved because there is no right answer .
gkimeng
Forum Mod, ClassicSpeakerPages.net
Well then, since most everyone is claiming flat response and accuracy, that means someone is doing it wrong.
But is this really supposed to be a conversation about whether or not some speakers need work, or about how they compare when they're working the way they're supposed to? Because a brand new Kia will drive circles around an unrestored Ferrari with a blown engine every time.
We should have an agreement/rule when signing up.
No VS threads, for the life of me I can't understand when someone phrases their title like that. Like they want a boxing match and start a thread generalizing something that will never have a concise outcome.
All it ever does is to get members to fight with each other until the thread gets closed.
No VS threads, for the life of me I can't understand when someone phrases their title like that. Like they want a boxing match and start a thread generalizing something that will never have a concise outcome.
All it ever does is to get members to fight with each other until the thread gets closed.
pete_mac
Super Member
I'm not sure why you are intent on making modern speakers out to be KIAs and vintage speakers to be Ferraris.
There are a only a handful of vintage speakers that could truly be considered 'Ferraris' IMHO, and for each of these Ferraris, there are many, many modern Koenigseggs
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Thanks for the laugh - I needed it today
Anytime bot anytime...
besides my system is best with the best speakers and there is nothing better.
RamblinE
(╯°□°)╯彡┻━┻
One unique and one not so unique thing is at play heavily in vintage vs modern threads. You have a disproportionate amount if this community into vintage gear. Disproportionate compared to other parts of the internet at least. The other factor at play is childish and immature but something that men suffer from in every hobby. No matter how good any given system is there's always a better one. Most people don't want to hear that. A lot of people even if they do realize it don't want to acknowledge it. It impacts vs arguments heavily but it also crossed the board.
It just seems like for a lot of folks there's a big pride thing going on and it would be unacceptable to that pride to admit newer can be better. Okay that's an over simplification but everything from better manufacturing to better materials to superior design all get together to improve gear today at every price point.
That doesn't mean vintage is bad though as some people on the vintage side of the argument like to insinuate that people on the new side are saying.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
It just seems like for a lot of folks there's a big pride thing going on and it would be unacceptable to that pride to admit newer can be better. Okay that's an over simplification but everything from better manufacturing to better materials to superior design all get together to improve gear today at every price point.
That doesn't mean vintage is bad though as some people on the vintage side of the argument like to insinuate that people on the new side are saying.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
gkimeng
Forum Mod, ClassicSpeakerPages.net
I'm not; just making a point that if you're going to make quality comparisons between old and new, you have to use old samples that are working the way they were designed to. And there are probably very few old speakers that are working today the same way they were when they were new, unless they've been restored back to their original state.