Modern Speakers vs Vintage?

[truck]

Stephen Falken: Did you ever play tic-tac-toe?

Jennifer: Yeah, of course.

Stephen Falken: But you don't anymore.

Jennifer: No.

Stephen Falken: Why?

Jennifer: Because it's a boring game. It's always a tie.

Stephen Falken: Exactly. There's no way to win. The game itself is pointless! But back at the war room, they believe you can win a nuclear war. That there can be "acceptable losses."

 

[nfafan]

I would really love to see some vintage/new comparisons that mean something in the real world, as in "I'm thinking about getting a restored pair of...whatever...for $700. What new speakers could I get for that much?" Because I really am not all that familiar with the latest modern gear.

I don't think a lot of us vintage fans need convincing that a pair of Wilson Audio MAXX Series 3 at $68,000 would be better speakers than a pair of vintage AR-3a's or JBL L100 Century..do we?

Half the battle is that those of us "into vintage" can still vaguely recall the days when every department store had an audio department, every city of reasonable size had multiple audio stores of various offerings - so we remember (or at least think we can remember) "hearing" the Altecs and Advents and BICs and JBLs and KLHs and Dynacos and Bose 501s and ARs.

Now we are reduced to a handful of speakers at a BB or hhGreg, so we live on the 'net to talk about our passions.

I like speakers of all sizes and vintages, from my Insignias and Sony SS-B1000s to my KLH-32s and Ohm Walshes; only wish I had enough room to place as many as I own or want to own.

 

[gkimeng]

All well and good, but if someone told us about a really great new speaker we could go check out that was available at a price we could actually afford, that would just be one more thing to talk about on the net...wouldn't it?

 

[Rex Aeterna]

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[valvenator]

Half the battle is that those of us "into vintage" can still vaguely recall the days when every department store had an audio department, every city of reasonable size had multiple audio stores of various offerings - so we remember (or at least think we can remember) "hearing" the Altecs and Advents and BICs and JBLs and KLHs and Dynacos and Bose 501s and ARs.

Now we are reduced to a handful of speakers at a BB or hhGreg, so we live on the 'net to talk about our passions.

I like speakers of all sizes and vintages, from my Insignias and Sony SS-B1000s to my KLH-32s and Ohm Walshes; only wish I had enough room to place as many as I own or want to own.

So we're trying to recreate those speaker stores in our own homes? :headscrat
Maybe what we need is a traveling speaker museum (not in a white van :stupid that parks in your driveway for a month or so and lets you listen to all those speakers you always wanted to hear but couldn't afford back then.
OK, I'm just being a wisenheimer here but actually :scratch2: now that I think about it, that would be kinda cool.
BTW +1 for ^^^ cause that's what it really comes down to. Whatever floats your boat, whatever dumps your truck, whatever tips your little red wagon. In the end it's your ears that need to be pleased.

 

[chadnliz]

On a happy note I let my friend borrow my Sonus Faber Venere monitors a month ago, tomorrow I get em' back!

 

[nfafan]

So we're trying to recreate those speaker stores in our own homes? :headscrat
Maybe what we need is a traveling speaker museum (not in a white van :stupid that parks in your driveway for a month or so and lets you listen to all those speakers you always wanted to hear but couldn't afford back then.
<snip>

I'd be happy with a store, any store, that actually focused on audio like in the days of old.

Maybe if I'm lucky, that store would not only have the new goodies we can only read about, or maybe, maybe see at a BBuy - but it would also have a selection of used, re-furbed trade-ins we could "nostalgiate" over.

Be interesting to hear a head/head competition between a fully-rehabbed KLH-23 against the latest gold-poly-woofered BBuy beauty.

 

[esprits4s]

So where do you all draw the time line on new vs used vs vintage? This discussion has been portayed as binary when it is much more continuous for me. My personal speaker collection ranges from new back to the 1970's. I Don't focus on vintage per say, but I definitely focus on used, and by used I mean well down the depreciation curve.
It seems most of us on AK place some focus on value. The cost is no object crowd tends to hang out elsewhere. So, new vs used modern vs not vs vintage? Where do speakers from the 90's and 2000's fit into this discussion?

 

[tomlinmgt]

Be interesting to hear a head/head competition between a fully-rehabbed KLH-23 against the latest gold-poly-woofered BBuy beauty.

Maybe not a "BBuy beauty", but go to pg 5 of this thread and start at post #71...

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=662832

I actually have a set of Klipsch RB-5iis and those have gold poly cones and might very well have been sold in BB back when they were in production...they made me feel the same way about the 23's.

 

[pognoot]

I can only share my personal experience. Since speaking in generalities is meaningless for me, I will resort to specifics. I have two sets of "modern" speakers: the Polk Audio RTi12 and the Focal Chorus 836v. I have two 3 sets of Pioneer "vintage" speakers: the Pioneer HPM-150, HPM-900, and HPM-100.

The modern speaker systems sound much better over my 30+ year old speakers. Both the Focals and Polks throw a much wider soundstage than their vintage counterparts. High end is much, much smoother. Vocals sound much more natural. Both the 836vs and RTi12 use a 3 bass driver configuration, so none are lacking in bottom end.

If you start taking specifics and direct comparisons, I think the discussion becomes much more interesting. In my experience, the newer modern designs outperform the classics in every measurable way.

But I still LOVE my classics… they are so cool, in a different sort of way…

I would like to see more direct comparisons on AK instead of the generalities. And try to make them reasonable. I'd love to see something like AR9 vs. B&W CM10 S2. Or Pioneer HPM-200 vs. GoldenEar Triton One… Start making the direct comparisons. Much more interesting discussion to read here.

 

[Grizzog]

For me, I had the experience of vintage over modern. I sold my Monitor Audio RS6 to get a pair of Klipsch Heresy III. I know that isn't a vintage speaker, but is based on one. However, that lead me to changing my main system. I sold my Martin Logan ESLs and replaced them with Altec 19. To me, the altecs, at 35 years old, are more lifelike and just about as detailed (more so in some areas).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Porkloin]

For me, I had the experience of vintage over modern. I sold my Monitor Audio RS6 to get a pair of Klipsch Heresy III. I know that isn't a vintage speaker, but is based on one. However, that lead me to changing my main system. I sold my Martin Logan ESLs and replaced them with Altec 19. To me, the altecs, at 35 years old, are more lifelike and just about as detailed (more so in some areas).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would never move the RS6's out of the home theater as they have their strengths for that application, but when A/B'd in the living room, they don't hold a candle to the musical presence of the 70's monsters.
It could be a severe dose of sentimentality coloring my view, however.

 

[gkimeng]

So where do you all draw the time line on new vs used vs vintage?

I usually put the dividing line somewhere around 1990. That's about when focus group tests by Floyd Toole seemed to become the design standard for mass market audio products. But if you're shopping in the high end, individuality never seemed to take a back seat to consumer preference so I don't think you can really make much of a distinction there.

I don't really have a concept of "better" when it comes to subjective preference, just "better for me." I liked the speakers I bought in the 70s, and since then my tastes just haven't changed.

 

[murphythecat]

A topic that's been much discussed and debated. There really isn't a right answer.

There were junk speakers from the vintage era, there were very good speakers from the vintage era.

There are junk modern speakers, there are very good modern speakers.

IMO, as someone who has and loves some very nice vintage speakers, modern flagship speakers will beat vintage. Technology, manufacturing, R&D, materials you name it have all evolved.

A good quality well engineered vintage speaker will sound better than many cheaper modern speakers.

Large vintage speakers turned into slim floor standers of today mainly because of the influence of HT and dual purpose stereos. They'll typically disappear into the room easier which when you already have a a 60" TV and such can be a pretty big selling point...

Very generally speaking however is that you can find great value in certain vintage speakers which will out perform modern speakers comparing used $ versus new. On the flip side, higher end modern speakers will not be matched by vintage unless someone is specifically seeking a vintage sound.

Not sure why I typed so much considering these threads typically turn into a mess and are deleted....

this

 

[hnash53]

I started out with vintage JBL L26 Decades, followed by Bose 301s, then vintage EPI 150s, then Audio Nirvana Classic 8s mounted in vintage Pioneer CS 77 cabinets.

But finally I have settled on Polk Audio Monitor 40s and a MartinLogan Dynamo 300 subwoofer.

I think that modern technology and new speaker designs trump the vintage speakers of yesteryear.

But you know what? All of the above (and many others mentioned in this thread) sound pretty damn good to me... including the Bose 301s. Knock them or not, they sounded pretty good.

Pick whatever it is that floats your boat & blows your skirt up!!!

 

[ultumax]

So where do you all draw the time line on new vs used vs vintage? This discussion has been portayed as binary when it is much more continuous for me. My personal speaker collection ranges from new back to the 1970's. I Don't focus on vintage per say, but I definitely focus on used, and by used I mean well down the depreciation curve.
It seems most of us on AK place some focus on value. The cost is no object crowd tends to hang out elsewhere. So, new vs used modern vs not vs vintage? Where do speakers from the 90's and 2000's fit into this discussion?

I value any speaker of good sound quality, but sadly some of newer speakers outperform even the best vintage. Golden-ear Triton have a great sound stage people say, but Ive never heard them.

For dollar-performance value vintage always wins though. unless restore costs a lot, then new wins,.
Newer speakers though, have a huge sound-stage for how much smaller then are, often outperform bass of larger vintage models.
Floor-standers often wipe the floor in bass output.

Modern speakers are slimmer and better for small rooms like mine. I am running vintage upgraded rears though.

 

[biscuithead]

There are MANY modern hand built speakers - many vintage speakers, like Advents, old Genesis, etc were all put together using Jigs, etc. So, they were not hand built.

One can be uninformed at any age, sir.

I did not mean to imply that all vintage speakers were hand made. So let me re-state this it terms that are less divisive:
I am attracted to the craftsmanship of a speaker before anything else. I have been attracted to some modern speakers that clearly were assembled with excellent craftsmanship, but they are out of my price range. All of my prized speakers that meet all of MY criteria are vintage. A huge part of my qualifying criteria is affordability.
Forgive me if this sounds uninformed...

 

[biscuithead]

Picking at nits here, but a person using jigs to position parts for assembly is still "hand building." In order for something not to be, automation needs to replace hands

It's arguable whether vintage speakers were more "hand built" than modern, because a lot of today's speakers are still assembled by hand - it's just that the hands are located overseas and are not being paid a decent living wage.

Well said, my friend... Which helps to usher in another factor in this conversation.... Consumerism. I feel that I am somehow being a more responsible human when I buy an old pair of University's and rebuild/restore them. Verses buying a new set of Whatever brand of speaker, that was pumped out of whatever factory, using formaldehyde impregnated MDF in its cabinet, with veneer that was glued on with a high VOC glue, and most likely CFCs. I could go on and on about modern materials and manufacturing. A speaker that has already been born many years ago (although likely to also contain hazardous schtuff), needs to be upcycled/recycled to keep the new and more more hazardous schtuff from entering our environment... blah blah save our planet, I know this will mostly fall on deaf ears...

 

[biscuithead]

I'm the opposite, fat squat boxes, beige grill clothes just bore me. I like the modern narrow tower models, Sonus Faber angular designs, piano gloss, exotic wood wraps.....we all have different takes on what's attractive. I feel modern offerings are tighter and more articulate in bass region and tweeters offer so much more air and detail.

I totally respect that.... Some are a "man of their times" and some are " a man of past times"...

But I ask you to also think about the Consumerism aspect...

 

[Poultrygeist]

Every vintage speaker I've seen was made from particle board ( aka chip board ).

No self respecting DIY speaker builder would use particle board today. Most use MDF or plywood.

MDF is commonly used in modern speakers and is much denser and has better sonic properties than particle board.