Mono 2 Track

[Digiverse]

Hi Guys, I intend to buy pre-recorded 3/34 twin mono tapes, I am trying to find out which deck would be best to play these on, and then I will try and purchase that deck, I live in Australia, I have so far found a Grundig TA 40, a STUZZI Austria radiocord 203, a GRUNDIG TK-247 DELUXE, a Mayfair FT 1024, and a Robuk RK3. If I 'am understanding correctly, I will need it to be 2 track ? is that right ? as opposed to 4 track, and, of course, mono. I will need to be able to connect deck to amp as well. Another choice would be a Tandberg 64. I know these tapes are not considered the best, but I still wish to collect, as well as other pre-recorded tapes in other formats-speeds ect. So far, I 'am leaning towards the Grundig TA 40, all valve is also desired. Thanks. Groovetube.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Needs to be two track mono. And those UK tapes in this format need a IEC curve for correct playback. Many Grundig machines are 4 track mono. In Tandberg, the 64 is 4 track. There is a two track Stereo version called the 62.

 

[jlb2]

Hi, any deck capable to play at 3 3/4 ips will do, as long as you can play channel 1 only, which is very easy: if the deck doesn't have a switch to do it, a mere Y cable will do the trick. A 1/2-track deck is best, a 1/4-track machine will play it fine too, with the only problem of slightly increased hiss - the left channel in the 4 tracks layout is a the right location to play a 1/2-track mono track. The right track is not, but you don't want to hear it anyway.

As regards the EQ curve, CCIR (with IEC as a frequent misnomer) is not defined for 3 3/4 ips so you don't have to worry about it, any deck uses the NAB curve at that speed - including the Tandberg 62 & 64 for which the service manual states it explicitly. I don't know why this information has been surfacing repeatedly but it is an obvious mistake. There is no such thing as a CCIR 3 3/4 ips tape.

As a bottom note, even if that Beatles tape sounds really good, it's only 3 3/4 ips so you don't need a particularly fancy or high-end deck to get its full potential. I wouldn't buy a machine to play just one tape, it makes no sense. Any good mono or stereo, 1/2 track or even 1/4 track deck will play your tape and other tapes as well. An example of such deck is Revox A77 or B77, which has the built-in selector to play channel one (the one you need) to both outputs.

 

[Digiverse]

Hi, Thanks all, please excuse my ignorance, but I have very limited experience and knowledge with reel to reel, I did use one occasionally, a very long time ago, I do have a Teac A2300S, so it will play these tapes ? where are the switches to choose which track ? I also don't mind buying a mono deck, especially if it will give a truer hi-fi representation of the music, I also intend to have more than one of these tapes as well. I have the chance to secure a National RQ705, which is mono and tube. I'am assuming it is only a 2 track machine. What do you think ? Thanks. Groovetube.

 

[jlb2]

Hi, Thanks all, please excuse my ignorance, but I have very limited experience and knowledge with reel to reel

No problem, that's what the forum is here for :thmbsp:

I did use one occasionally, a very long time ago, I do have a Teac A2300S, so it will play these tapes ? where are the switches to choose which track ?

Unless it is a -2T version (easy to tell by looking at the heads), your A2300S is a 1/4 track deck. It will play that tape without problem, the only thing that could be improved by a 1/2 track deck is the signal/noise ratio, and it's probably not a night and day difference at that speed.

AFAIK the A2300S does not have a switch to select tracks. You do it externally by inserting a Y adapter between the left output of the deck and both inputs of the amplifier. That works perfectly.

I also don't mind buying a mono deck, especially if it will give a truer hi-fi representation of the music,

It will not. But only a fool would try to discourage one from getting a recorder

I also intend to have more than one of these tapes as well. I have the chance to secure a National RQ705, which is mono and tube. I'am assuming it is only a 2 track machine. What do you think ? Thanks. Groovetube.

The number of tapes you have does not make any difference. I don't know the National RQ705, I doubt it plays a tape better than a stereo machine as long as you listen to channel 1 only.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

1/2 track mono and 1/4 track stereo are different. Might play the tape with less s/n ratio might crosstalk. Might play one side, might not play the other side. And on a NAB machine would require some degree of treble boosting. I'd go for a mono machine like a mono Sony or similar and use that with a Y adapter to play it through your Stereo system for these tapes. Then you'd just have the playback curve difference to deal with. With the narrower head even if it plays if, the treble boost would make the tape hiss much more audible. Open reel does not have the wide compatibility between formats which cassettes do.

 

[Digiverse]

Hi, Okay, so my instinct seems to be panning out, towards getting a mono deck for these tapes, and yes, my teac A2300S is a quarter track, so, if there is any doubts about using the teac for these tapes, then again, I will go for a mono deck. I have found a couple already, namely the national rq705 , national rq 503s, Grundig tk40, grundig tk 247 deluxe, robuk rk3, and a STUZZI Austria radiocord 203, Which one ? Thanks. Groovetube.

 

[jlb2]

1/2 track mono and 1/4 track stereo are different. Might play the tape with less s/n ratio might crosstalk.Might play one side, might not play the other side.

Sorry to contradict you, but no. On a 1/4 track head, the left channel is channel 1 which is located on the upper edge of the tape. Unless the deck has a very bad problem there is no chance of audible crosstalk with channel 3 which is the centre lower part. The track layouts for 1/2 and 1/4 tracks, and their variants are reproduced here, with the widths. Do the math and you will easily see that the left channel of a 1/2 track tape covers 0% of the right channel of the 1/4 track head, with a substantial safety margin. The symmetry of the channel layout also guarantees that it will be the same when you flip the tape. If not, the deck is out of alignment and you need to calibrate.

And on a NAB machine would require some degree of treble boosting [...] Then you'd just have the playback curve difference to deal with.

Again, no. Not to compensate for the EQ curve anyway. There is a difference between NAB and CCIR at 7.5 and up, but 3 3/4 ips is NAB, period. Even on CCIR decks. Check the manual of your Otari if you don't believe me. That's basic knowledge of analogue recording, and the standards are widely available to check what I say.

In case you still can't believe it, here is a comprehensive list of all the EQ curves used in magnetic recording over the ages. The conclusion: no problem with NAB unless those tapes were a unique case of using the short-lived, long-obsolete IEC or DIN curve defined for 3 3/4 ips, but then (a) it is not at all what has been said of these tapes, here and on other forums, (b) how would they know unless it's written on the box, and (c) good luck on finding a deck using that curve. Should the case occur a parametric equalizer, not a mere treble control knob, would be the only way to properly compensate for the difference.

Open reel does not have the wide compatibility between formats which cassettes do.

Apart from the noise issue (about a 2dB loss in signal/noise ratio), there is no incompatibility issue in this case, not with what has been said on the multiple threads on this topic anyway. To the risk of sounding like a broken record, there is no point whatsoever in using a specific deck for a given tape. Even if the tape was nonstandard, you coulnd't know which deck matches it - most probably none!

 

[jlb2]

Hi, Okay, so my instinct seems to be panning out, towards getting a mono deck for these tapes, and yes, my teac A2300S is a quarter track, so, if there is any doubts about using the teac for these tapes, then again, I will go for a mono deck. I have found a couple already, namely the national rq705 , national rq 503s, Grundig tk40, grundig tk 247 deluxe, robuk rk3, and a STUZZI Austria radiocord 203, Which one ? Thanks. Groovetube.

There is no sensible reason to use a mono deck over a stereo deck to play a half-track mono tape. You might possibly want use a very specific machine to match a very specific EQ curve and/or head layout, but then you cannot know whether any one of those decks match a given tape that you don't even have yet. One more important point: all those decks are old-timers, very rare, apparently not very good quality, and will most probably need an overhaul before they can play a tape. I fully understand the cool factor in owning one, but it's best to be aware of the hassle it can be to actually use one.

PS: In case you haven't noticed yet I seriously question that whole IEC equalisation curve story. I traced it to a 2007 thread on Steve Hoffman's forum in which it was announced without any sort of justification. Same thing re. the track layout: it was initially said that it was "twin mono", whatever that is supposed to mean (the actual name is 1/2 track mono) and since then all sorts of theories and interpretations of this initial questionable info seem to have appeared in the various reincarnations of that thread. If I was you I'd just wait to have the tape and read what's written on it before doing anything in terms of buying recorders. It is extremely likely that those Beatles tapes are perfectly standard, and moreover you won't hurt them by playing them, even on a 1/4-track deck Don't overdo things, and don't draw conclusions from facts that you don't have and that nobody else seems to have for that matter.

 

[Digiverse]

Hi, Thanks jlb2, It is great to know that I can use my Teac A2300S to play these mono tapes, and that I don't need to get a similar period deck that we have been discussing here, although, I may still yet get one, as I actually like mono, and I though it would be better to do it this way, I was not really trying to perfectly match a particular brand/model to these tapes, just a mono 2 track to use with these tapes as opposed to using a 4 track, especially if there was likely to be any compatibility issues, While we are talking about the Teac, how do I access each track on the machine itself ? ie. switch it from track 1,2,3 to 4 ? Someone mentioned a y cable, I know that I 'am showing my ignorance here, but what exactly is it ? and how does it work ? Thanks. Groovetube.

 

[jlb2]

Hi Groovetube,

On a 1/4 track stereo deck like your A2300, the left channel is track 1, and the right channel is track 3. You would need a 4-tracker, e.g. a A2340, to access tracks 2 and 4.

A Y cable is just a passive splitter with one input that goes into the output socket of the recorder, and two output conecteors which are both linked to the same signal and feed both inputs of your amplifier. It is a cheap & easy way to have a mono signal fed to both loudspeakers. You can buy one, or easily make it yourself if you can use a soldering iron.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Still try playing these on the Teac, might do fine. IEC is different sometimes, on the consumer formats less so. Treble boost or cut will get you close. 1/2 track or two track Stereo will play with some S/N penalty on a 1/4 track machine, many do that. A Y cable from one channel to Stereo with the Teac is good for mono use. A Y cable outputs one channel to play through two channels. My suggestion of a two track or half track mono machine was to allow you to play said tape at full quality, as these tapes were made for such recorders. Also, the older Akai machines with switches for single channel play which shift the head are options.

 

[Digiverse]

Hi, Okay, then why is the Teac A2300S listed as a 4 track ?

 

[jlb2]

Hi, Okay, then why is the Teac A2300S listed as a 4 track ?

It is a misnomer for 1/4 track. The A2300S does not actually have 4 channels, unlike the A2340.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

4 track is the common home format expression for 1/4 track. Other notes: IEC2 standard is NAB standard. IEC1 is the European curve known also as CCIR/DIN which is what your 2 track also known as 1/2 track mono tapes are recorded at. Up to 1967, this standard was the common curve used in European recording in home and in studio. At slower speeds, the differences might well be lesser. So, I hope this explains the curve differences. So, both sides have merit on the curves. 4 track as correctly stated is 4 track, two channel in home recorder speak.

Other note to know. A little history. Tape recorders in 1950's and 1960's England and Germany were luxury items and cost a good deal of money relative to ordinary incomes. Tape recorders were usually mono for most people, Stereo recorders less common among most until around 1965-1969 in open reel. Since most tape recorder owners in the UK had 1/2 track mono recorders, EMI popularized 3 3/4 IPS Monophonic Tape Records (EMI speak for pre-recorded tapes) which was the common home pre-recorded format there. EMI did do some Stereo tapes in 1/2 track early on (Classical and Opera titles released on HMV and on UK Columbia labels). And a few late open reel titles had Stereo options available. Pre-Recorded open reel tapes were usually not popular in Europe otherwise, mainly a popular format in the USA, Canada, and Japan.

 

[Digiverse]

Hi, I just worked it out, thanks guys, so, you record in stereo/ using 2 tracks in one direction, then, when finished side one, flip tape and record again on side 2,to finish, hence 4 track/2 channel, okay, phew, got it. So, how does the recorder know which tracks have already been recorded on ? I also noticed that the Teac A2300S does not have a switch for 1,2,3 or 4 track as some other 4 track/ 2 channel decks do.

 

[Digiverse]

Hi, I think I have this worked out as well, please confirm, the record off/on buttons for left and right ?! is that how it works for all 4 tracks to be recorded ?

 

[jlb2]

Other notes: IEC2 standard is NAB standard. IEC1 is the European curve

This is correct.

known also as CCIR/DIN.

The CCIR name is correct, but the DIN name is not. DIN did issue some EQ curves, but they are not the same as CCIR. Please refer to the list linked to in my previous posts.

which is what your 2 track also known as 1/2 track mono tapes are recorded at.

Once again... Since CCIR was never defined for 9.5 cm/s, the tapes recorded at that speed use the NAB equalization. Even those recorded on CCIR machines.

Up to 1967, this standard was the common curve used in European recording in home and in studio.

Two errors in this sentence. CCIR was only defined in 1965 (NAB in 1953) and only caught up in professional use. Amateur decks were always NAB in Europe too, as one can easily check in the manuals of the decks.

At slower speeds, the differences might well be lesser. So, I hope this explains the curve differences.

The differences are not lesser. There are no differences at all, because CCIR was never defined for speeds lower than 19 cm/s! so that any slower speed uses NAB, for the simple reason that there is no other EQ standard for those speeds.

 

[jlb2]

Hi, I just worked it out, thanks guys, so, you record in stereo/ using 2 tracks in one direction, then, when finished side one, flip tape and record again on side 2,to finish, hence 4 track/2 channel, okay, phew, got it.

That is correct :thmbsp:

 

[jlb2]

Hi, I think I have this worked out as well, please confirm, the record off/on buttons for left and right ?! is that how it works for all 4 tracks to be recorded ?

You cannot record all four tracks on your 1/4 track stereo deck (at least, not at the same time), only tracks 1 and 3.