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Monster Receivers: How much WPC output into 4 ohms? An AK Collaborative Project

N

Njord Noatun

Super Member
Banned
One of the first thread's on AK was Bully's excellent and extensive database over the purchase price, production years and WPC output in 8 ohms of "Monster Receivers", as defined as FTC WPC nominal output of 150 WPC (again, in 8 ohms) or more.

Since different amps behave differently with a 4 ohm load than an 8 ohm load, I propose this thread to create a depository for WPC nominal (official) outputs into 4 ohms.

Rules:
  • What to contribute: Nominal (official FTC tested) WPC outputs into 4 ohms.
  • What components to include: Monster Receivers (150 wpc+ into 8 ohms) as per Bully's thread.
  • No guessing: You have to be able to document, either from the owner's manual, other documentation from the manufacturer, or other reliable publicly available Internet source, the officially published 4 ohm FTC output.
  • No bench tests: Officially published outputs only.
Who knows - we may actually learn something.:thmbsp:

So far we have: (8ohm/4ohm Delta%- ranked by 4 ohm FTC output)

  1. Sansui G-33000: 300/450 50%
  2. Marantz 2600: 300/400 33%
  3. Technics SA-1000: 330/360 9%
  4. Marantz 2500: 250/330 32%
  5. Sansui G-22000: 220/300 36%
  6. Concept 16.5: 165/250 52%
  7. Kenwood KR-9050: 200/250 25%
  8. Marantz 2385: 185/240 30% Source: Owner's Manual (250 wpc according to 1978 Marantz catalog).
  9. Hitachi SR-2004: 200/230 15%
  10. Toshiba SA-7150: 150/230 53%
  11. Rotel RX-1603: 180/220 22%
  12. Pioneer SX-1250: 160/200 25%
  13. Kenwood KR-9600: 160/200 25%
  14. Yamaha CR-3020: 160/200 25%
  15. Sansui G-9000: 160/160 0% (?)

4 Ohm rating missing from available documentation (notable absences):
  • Pioneer SX-1980: 270/na
  • Pioneer SX-1280: 185/na
Click to expand...
 
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Altthough far from the most powerful monster into either 8 or 4 ohm, here comes my first contribution:

Concept 16.5: 250 wpc into 4 ohms.
Source: Owner's Manual
 
Nice idea.

While you are improving the list, is there any chance of extending it down to include the 100-150 WPC receivers? Would make the list more relevant/useful in terms of models that one has a greater likelihood of running across and collecting. [How many people, even here on AK, own more than one or two --if any!-- of the "dream" receivers on that list? Probably a few here own several/most of them, but for every individual who does, no doubt there are many, many more who have never even seen one of them.]
 
Arkay said:
Nice idea.
Click to expand...
Thanks.

I wanted to structure it to be identical to Bully's 8 ohm "sticky"database for ease of selecting the "proper" amps.

But you will notice that Bully also has a "100-130 wpc" sticky (who knows what happened to the 130-150 amps - perhaps there aren't any?:scratch2:), so it would be easy to expand the concept into a second 4 ohm database if interest and supply of data justify it.

EDIT: If you know the 4ohm FTC output of any 100+ 8 ohm wpc receivers, please post them here, too. Can't hurt - I'll split them into two groups "Super Monsters
and "Monsters".
 
NN: I was looking over the SX-1980 manual and there is no FTC rating for 4 ohms. According to the opening post in the "Most Powerful Receiver" thread in general audio discussion, the SX-1980 is capable 460 watts headroom, which is different from an FTC rating. Sadly, it looks like there will be some significant blanks in your 4 ohm list.
 
SX-1250: 200 wpc in 4 ohm

SoCal Sam said:
Sadly, it looks like there will be some significant blanks in your 4 ohm list.
Click to expand...
Yes, I was disappointed, if not infuriated, by that, too. The same applies to the SX-1280 :gigglemad

Perhaps that's why no-one has compiled and published such reference before!
 
Fun facts from the SM's:

Hitachi SR-2004, 230 wpc into 4 ohm, 20-20k
Toshiba SA-7150, 230 wpc into 4 ohm, 20-20k
Kenwood KR-9050, 250 wpc into 4 ohm at 1K
Sansui G-9000, 160 wpc into 4 ohm, 20-20k
(most likely a SM misprint on the G-9, same rating as 8 ohm)
 
Great idea NN, alot of the 70's amp sections were not designed for 4ohm loads and if they were could become unstable if pushed hard into that load, I was warned by many here not to push my Marantz 2270 hard with the Martin Logans (4ohm nominal, but dip lower) sounded fine low volume, but cranked I didn't want any magic smoke:nono:. Some guys here with the big Infinity's, Apogee's, and other amp breakers may want to chime in with their war stories, there must be quite a few. The Marantz guys all say don't push hard into 4ohms with their receivers and I would assume most of the other brands as well, correct me guys if I'm wrong, why not pre out to a beefy separate amp made for that purpose and keep the pretty lights and great phono section:thmbsp:

Again great thread Craig
 
I've always wondered how accurate those FTC rating really were. Yes, they were VERY conservative, but were some more conservative than others??

I have a feeling that many time those FTC 4ohm ratings were very innacurate.

I have an amplifier that's rated at 100wpc in 8ohms. although, it did not clip on the benchtest until a whopping 162wpc/8ohms, with stock caps. If 162wpc was the TRUE 8 ohm rating, the 4-ohm rating must be at least 20wpc more. And with brand new Nichicon power supply caps and Panasonic SU caps for the driver boards, who knows how high this thing will go!

I'd normally give you the one for the Setton RS-660 but the manuals only have the 8-ohm rating.

Henry
 
I can state that one of the later Fisher RS-1080 brochures has a published spec for 4 ohms but I forget what it is and I don't own the brouchure, someone emailed me the specs years ago but they got lost in the shuffle. I do know that it was higher than the 170wpc of the 8 ohm rating.

That said the FTC ratings are pretty much worthless in the real world, Fisher Dave sent me some test results from some Fisher RS-1060s which benched 225wpc into 8 ohms which exceeds its published 125wpc by 100wpc, almost twice what its rated for (and this result was the same on two receivers, which means it probably is consistent with the model).

To get true results it would be good to place these things on the test bench and find out. I may have figures for the MCS 3125 and Project One Mark 1500around, I'll look into it tomorrow.
 
yrly said:
I can state that one of the later Fisher RS-1080 brochures has a published spec for 4 ohms but I forget what it is and I don't own the brouchure, someone emailed me the specs years ago but they got lost in the shuffle. I do know that it was higher than the 170wpc of the 8 ohm rating.

That said the FTC ratings are pretty much worthless in the real world, Fisher Dave sent me some test results from some Fisher RS-1060s which benched 225wpc into 8 ohms which exceeds its published 125wpc by 100wpc, almost twice what its rated for (and this result was the same on two receivers, which means it probably is consistent with the model).

To get true results it would be good to place these things on the test bench and find out. I may have figures for the MCS 3125 and Project One Mark 1500around, I'll look into it tomorrow.
Click to expand...


Below is Chris Browns thoughts on the RS-1060 also.


The RS-1060 is one of the finest receivers I’ve ever owned. It has a sound that is very easy on the ears, about the most tube-like SS receiver I’ve ever heard. The thing I like best about the RS-1060 though is the incredible amount of power it has (rated at 125wpc, but I believe thats low). I’ve compared it against my Pioneer SX-1050 (120wpc) in many different configurations and though I love both, when it comes to demanding situations it’s dead obvious the RS-1060 has more power. I used it to power 4 Cerwin-Vega D-9’s for a long time and that configuration is now what my friend has at his house.

The only other units I’ve used to power those 4 speakers were the SX-1050 and my Yamaha M-2 amp. At loud volumes, the faceplate lights on the pioneer would dim and there would be audible distortion. The RS-1060 on the other hand seemed to be able to push them to an overall higher volume as well as more able to handle the occasional transitory peak in the music. The faceplate lights dim gently when its pushed extremely hard, which actually turns out to be a nice sort of indicator of when it has reached it’s max since it doesn’t have any kind of overload light.

When I used my Yamaha M-2 amp to power the 4 speakers, there was definitely more authority to the bass and it could push them even harder, but the difference between what it was capable of and what the RS-1060 was capable of was amazingly small considering the Yamaha is rated at 240wpc (8ohms) and was measured at 380wpc at 4ohms, which is what all the units were running at while powering the 2 pairs.
 
Hate to bust ya'all's bubble here, but manufacturer's ratings into 4 ohms are nearly always way off-base. Under-rated, mostly, but quoting their specs is an exercise in futility if you care anything about accuracy.

If that don't bother you, carry on gents.:beerchug:


Edit: You say 'no bench tests'. I generally don't test into 4 ohms, so I have little to offer in that regard, but I'm curious as to why? Also, if you're not interested in bench tests (or tests from magazine lab tests), then I guess accuracy is not an issue...so as far as my first couple 'O sentences in this post...nevermind.:sadwave:
 
EchoWars said:
Hate to bust ya'all's bubble here, but manufacturer's ratings into 4 ohms are nearly always way off-base. Under-rated, mostly, but quoting their specs is an exercise in futility if you care anything about accuracy.
Click to expand...

FTC ratings are indeed highly questionable in measuring true power outputs, and we are all aware of that. However, the stated intent of this exercise is merely to compile the specific information manufacturers chose, for whatever reason, to make available to the public. On these grounds, as the original poster, I would like to encourage this thread to be limited to compiling the data, but to discuss the validity of the data in separate threads (which already has been done extensively) in order not to de-rail this data-collection exercise.

So, in short, it doesn't bother me that the information may be off: Please keep the data flowing. BTW, Echowars (and all), we are still missing info for the SX-1980 and SX-1280 (as well as the two heaviest Sansui G's).
 
EchoWars said:
Hate to bust ya'all's bubble here, but manufacturer's ratings into 4 ohms are nearly always way off-base. Under-rated, mostly, but quoting their specs is an exercise in futility if you care anything about accuracy.

If that don't bother you, carry on gents.:beerchug:


Edit: You say 'no bench tests'. I generally don't test into 4 ohms, so I have little to offer in that regard, but I'm curious as to why? Also, if you're not interested in bench tests (or tests from magazine lab tests), then I guess accuracy is not an issue...so as far as my first couple 'O sentences in this post...nevermind.:sadwave:
Click to expand...


i am curious about your thoughts or guesses on why the rated WPC from the manufacturer's is so conservative, they bench test the same as you i am sure, i recall you posting some numbers where a 1250 clipped well over 200 wpc..i would think pioneer would point at those numbers and say.. yeah baby take that..i am also sure there is a logical reason such as each unit tests differently and the official wpc is the number all of the recivers in that class reach at the rated distortion....anyone know for certain?
 
Twenty20Man said:
i am curious about your thoughts or guesses on why the rated WPC from the manufacturer's is so conservative, they bench test the same as you i am sure, i recall you posting some numbers where a 1250 clipped well over 200 wpc..i would think pioneer would point at those numbers and say.. yeah baby take that..i am also sure there is a logical reason such as each unit tests differently and the official wpc is the number all of the recivers in that class reach at the rated distortion....anyone know for certain?
Click to expand...

You are raising some very interesting questions, Twenty20Man, that I would like to see everyone's reflections on. However, I would like to encourage discussions on the validity of stated output claims vs. actual outputs (and so forth) to be done in a separate thread, in order not to distract from the original intent of this thread - simply to collect stated, nominal 4 ohm WPC outputs for high-power receivers.

Thank you for respecting this and for your understanding. :thmbsp:
 
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