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Most MC like MM/MI cartridges

martinz

martinz

Active Member
Hi, just out of curiosity, which MM cartridges you think are the most MC like?
Forgive me if it sounds like a stupid question! I'm on my first MC cartridge honeymoon (AT33ptgII) and I'm intrigued to know if there are MM options that could be close.
Thanks
 
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mz: Technically on the electric side I'd nominate the few very low inductance, low output MMs from Elac and Pickering/Stanton as well as MIs from Grado and Soundsmith. Mechanically I'd say the Audio Technica dual/V magnet MM designs (and among the foremost the ones with metal tension wire), due to being most similar to the majority of MCs in terms of cantilever suspension (& damping) as well as location of the movable part of the generator on the cantilever.

All in all it's more difficult, also as one could also think of short to very short cantilevers as typical for middle to high class MCs, so one could for example also think of ADC and Sonus MIs. Or one could also regard a non-user-swappable needle as typical for the large majority of MCs, so that one could for example also have B&O's MMC family of MIs in mind...

From a sound quality point of view to come close to the quality of an AT33PTG/II you'd generally have to look into top class MMs and MIs - among AT's own MMs foremost the AT24/25 (& Signet TK9/10) and AT-ML180/OCC.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Very thoughtful response - I had assumed that what was asked was what MM/MIs sound like MCs, but it's much more interesting to think about physical, electrical, and any other similarities that might be related to sounding similar. Standard introductory level electromagnetic theory suggests that wagging a magnet near a coil has the same effect as wagging a coil near a magnet, but I asume reality is a lot finer grained than the simplest interpretation of theory.
 
Running a Lyra Argo-i and an Audio-Technica AT150mlx, both through a K&K Audio phono stage. The AT isn't quite at the level of the Lyra, but it sure comes close. I believe that using a really good PS can narrow the difference to some extent.
 
I'm with Lini on this...I have a low inductance, low output AT15Sa that's quite like the MC I've heard...dynamics, wide stereo separation and stage to rival the Benz Micros I have, with a little more warmth than the current AT cartridges but not quite up to the level of the Benzes or even the Denons.

Interesting comment about the B&O MMC cartridges as the iron cross does closely resemble the coil cores typically found on moving coils. Only problem for me is the MMC require an adapter which is quite flimsy, and which brings about a softness in the bass I associate more with inexpensive, plastic bodied MM carts.
 
rb: Actually with low output MMs and MIs I rather didn't have the ones in mind that have a comparatively low output within the high output group, but rather the very few ones with an output about as low as low output MCs.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
My Grado 8MR cartridge with MCZ stylus is on par with my Denon DL301 mk II. Different sound character but it can dig out the details and present tones like a moving coil.
 
lini said:
mz: Technically on the electric side I'd nominate the few very low inductance, low output MMs from Elac and Pickering/Stanton as well as MIs from Grado and Soundsmith.
Click to expand...

There was also one from Australia's EEI (Elite Electronic Industries) - the EEI 747 Prelude, another low output MM, which had a 0.15mV output and a 1.5g tracking weight. There is a Hi-fi Choice review of it on vinylengine, as well as one in Australian Hi-fi's 1982 Stereo Buyer's Guide for turntables. Like most of EEI's cartridges, it had a nude parabolic stylus, and it also had a boron cantilever. See http://www.vinylengine.com/library/townshend/eei-747-prelude.shtml (former Australian navy engineer Max Townshend introduced EEI cartridges to Britain as a distributor)

EEI Pty Ltd were a small company from Melbourne who specialised in a range of aftermarket parabolic (line contact) styli for popular cartridges (Pickering, Ortofon, Shure and Stanton), which they had made in Japan. After finding success with them, they branched into designing cartridges in the late-70's, which were also made in Japan - the parts came from a range of different suppliers (at least three according to company brochures). They were best known in Australia, NZ, Indonesia and Malaysia.

EEI also sold the Mclaren 101 head amp from New Zealand amplifier company Mclaren (not related to the Formula 1, supercar and occasional hi-fi company, although their founders were both from NZ) to suit the 747.
 
Nat said:
Very thoughtful response - I had assumed that what was asked was what MM/MIs sound like MCs, but it's much more interesting to think about physical, electrical, and any other similarities that might be related to sounding similar. Standard introductory level electromagnetic theory suggests that wagging a magnet near a coil has the same effect as wagging a coil near a magnet, but I asume reality is a lot finer grained than the simplest interpretation of theory.
Click to expand...

Well if you think about it it makes perfect sense. The magnet weighs alot more than the tiny coil so the coil wagging is much more responsive than the ponderous by comparison magnet.
 
"mz: Technically on the electric side I'd nominate the few very low inductance, low output MMs from Elac and Pickering/Stanton as well as MIs from Grado and Soundsmith."

Like the Stanton 980/981 LZS?
 
mike_p said:
"mz: Technically on the electric side I'd nominate the few very low inductance, low output MMs from Elac and Pickering/Stanton as well as MIs from Grado and Soundsmith."

Like the Stanton 980/981 LZS?
Click to expand...

Which I referred to as the "Dyslexic Moving Coil" aka MC turned inside out. A great example of a MM with MC like qualities.
 
The Shure V15 Type II with a JICO SAS can give a MC a good run for its' money... at least the DL-300. But not quite...the DL-300 has the slightest edge when it comes to soundstage, tracking ability and sibilance torture tests.
 
FWIW, I find the Grado moving iron cartridges to have the sweet, sonorous liquid midrange qualities of the kind of LOMC cartridges that I prefer.

EDIT OK bowing to popular pressure.
...

Also, it's arguable, but probably worth noting that many of the 'best sounding' MM cartridges (EDIT: from my perspective, but what do I know?) are of the moving iron type.

Listening to 'em beats reading about 'em, though, I'd opine.

EDIT...

later, bambini.
 
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Nice article from W. O. Stanton in the 1960 Radio Shack catalog...
http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/1960/h070.html

070.jpg
\
072.jpg
\

... and mid-1960s Grado MC cartridges

169.jpg

source: www.alliedcatalogs.com (1965)
 
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mhardy6647 said:
FWIW, I find the Grado moving iron cartridges to have the sweet, sonorous liquid midrange qualities of the kind of LOMC cartridges that I prefer.
It's well known, but it's probably worth mentioning that the late Joe Grado invented the moving coil cartridge, but abandoned them pretty early on in the company's history to concentrate on the MI ("variable reluctance") designs.

Also, it's arguable, but probably worth noting that many of the 'best sounding' MM cartridges are of the moving iron type.

Listening to 'em beats reading about 'em, though, I'd opine.
Click to expand...

ummm, no. Joe invented/patented the stereo MC. The mono moving coil predates moving magnet.

The lowish voltage bodies (1.5mv) have only 9mH inductance. the low output bodies(.5mv) have only 2mH inductance. As Lini pointed out earlier, electrically, the Moving Iron type Grado uses rivals that of Moving Coils. Where inductance is key to the rise in impedance with a rise in frequency. Low inductance is not affected by capacitance, capacitance then doesn't affect natural frequency response of the generating system. Which is the electrical advantage MC's have over the vast majority of MM's. Then comes the mechanical of moving mass, and its issues. I've challenged many times for someone to weigh their MC bobbins vs the generating ring found in the cheapest of Grado bodies. So far, no takers.
 
mh: Sorry, but that Grado invented the moving coil is just a well-known rumour, similar to Ortofon having invented the MC in 1948. Klaus R. has researched a bit on that topic and found even earlier patent references - see there: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/9/98523.html


Mike: Yup, the 98xLZS would be one of those few.


Don: Thanks for the info - I wasn't aware of that EEI.


Kingshead: That advantage in mass/weight would foremost apply in combination with coreless coils, though - and one also shouldn't forget the extra mechanical resistance of the coil wiring, which MMs and MIs don't have to cope with. Or in other words: The typically less extended high frequency response of MMs and MIs isn't a good indicator in this case, as that's rather caused on the electrical side - so that trackability would seem a better indicator for mechanical responsiveness.


Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
needlestein said:
That was probably truer before Samarium-Cobalt magnets became available. Once the Samarium-Cobalt magnets entered the scene, then the advantage of moving iron was quite diminished. Powerful tiny magnets could now be as light or lighter than the iron slugs found in moving iron.

Why Joe Grado abandoned Moving Coil is anybody's guess. Perhaps he hadn't developed his tooling and production capabilities enough to produce them competitively and he found himself unable to compete with the production side of his own technology. Perhaps he granted licenses to his technology as well and profited enough from that. I would like to know why Grado abandoned moving coils. I doubt it was because Joe Grado didn't think they sounded good enough.
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actually he's on record of saying they sounded "spitty".......how far has MC technology advanced from the late 50's early 60's?
Joe was able to get 10-50K FR from his design.

the carts you refer to as moving iron having iron slugs, are a different type of moving iron, and they are actually "induced magnet" called moving iron. Why?.....because the iron is moving. The B&O and Grado use the iron disk as an interrupter of the magnetic circuit. To "bend the magnetic fields" as a guitar string does above it's pick-ups. Reluctance
 
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