Most sought after pioneers ???

[quadklipsh]

Hi , newby here.
Iv been into sansui and others but know pioneers potential .
Can you enlist some of the highest sound quality pioneer models from vintage era , worth refurbing and keeping.
Both tubes , and solid state.
Thanks.
Appreciate any ideas.

 

[Pyrrho]

The most sought after Pioneer units include the following.

With receivers, it would be the SX-1980 and the SX-1250; some add in the SX-1280. And the SX-1010. Three of those were top-of-the-line in their era (SX-1010, SX-1250, SX-1980).

Everything in the Series 20 line:

C-21 Preamplifier
M-22 Amplifier
D-23 Crossover
U-24 Program Selector
M-25 Amplifier
F-26 Tuner
A-27 Integrated Amp
F-28 Tuner​

https://web.archive.org/web/20111231051847/http://silverpioneer.netfirms.com/series20.htm

Everything in the SPEC series (the models in this would be "SPEC-x", where "x" is replaced with a number). See:

Preamps:

SPEC-1
SPEC-3​

https://web.archive.org/web/20120205013632/http://silverpioneer.netfirms.com/pre-amps.htm

Power Amps:

SPEC-2
SPEC-4
​

https://web.archive.org/web/20120111011630/http://silverpioneer.netfirms.com/power_amps.htm

Also the SA-9900 integrated amplifier.

I expect there will be others who will post, "how could you leave out ...?" and it may be that I have forgotten something, or it may be that they are wanting to make a longer list than I am wanting to make (thus including less sought after units).

 

[IMF_Pioneer]

In Amplifiers the Spec Series is without a doubt the most sought after and in Receivers the SX-1010, SX-1250 and SX-1980 take the mantle.

Turntables are another kettle of fish altogether as there are many differing opinions with the PL-71 very much up near the top it seems.

Speakers, well I've never rated Pioneers Domestic speakers in the high end category as there are plenty of dedicated speaker builders that far surpass anything Pioneer have ever made. BTW some rate the HPM-100's as right up there.

I'm sure this thread will have many opinions posted up.


UPDATE,
This should've been the second posting on this thread and thus why I've worded it like I have but Pyrrho must have been composing his post at the same time as myself and hit the "post reply" tab just before I did, thus it looks like I've just repeated what he's suggested which is pretty much the case.

 

[Pyrrho]

As IMF_Pioneer notes above, there is less interest in other types of Pioneer gear; there are mixed feelings on their speakers. Being mixed, that means fewer people are interested, and therefore they are less sought after than some of their other equipment..

Also, this does not mean that some of their other gear was not really good, but most people are not interested in reel to reel tape decks and some of the other sources.

 

[quadklipsh]

I will be happy to know of amps as well as speakers.
I had once an SLH5 PIONEER horn speakers. And they were stolen. I can always welcome those back again.

 

[tubed]

 

[David_NC]

I've often read that the SX-1010 and 1050's had somewhat better sound quality that the models above them, but who knows. I do know that my SX-1050 was one of my faves, when it was working properly. I bought it used in '86 while in college and used it for many years. Now, it's in need of repair, which will happen eventually. I never could bring myself to get rid of it, which is a good thing, based on prices of these in recent years.

 

[Pyrrho]

I've often read that the SX-1010 and 1050's had somewhat better sound quality that the models above them, but who knows. I do know that my SX-1050 was one of my faves, when it was working properly. I bought it used in '86 while in college and used it for many years. Now, it's in need of repair, which will happen eventually. I never could bring myself to get rid of it, which is a good thing, based on prices of these in recent years.

There were no units above the SX-1010; it was the top-of-the-line when it was being made. As for the SX-1050 having better sound than the SX-1250, I don't believe it. Not only would the engineers at Pioneer have listened to them and decided to make changes if that were the case, it also would have been noticed at the countless stores that sold the various Pioneer units, where salespeople would be switching back and forth between the different models all day long. I have never seen a claim from the era where anyone said any such thing.

I have read some posts where people claim that the middle of the line models sound better than your SX-1050 and the SX-1250. Aside from having owned several models myself over the years (I kept the SX-1250 and got rid of the lower models I have owned), again, back when they were new, not only would Pioneer engineers have been listening to them and fixed any such problems, if they failed to notice, again, the countless sales staff who were switching between models all day long would have noticed and said something about it. Have you ever seen any claim from 40 years ago or earlier in which ANYONE said that the lower models sounded better? If so, please provide a reference for us to check.

This is not to disparage the lower models; they sound fine. I had, at one time, a Pioneer SX-450, and it really was a decent unit. I could certainly see it as a viable option. But it was not as good as the higher models, no matter what any owner of an SX-450 might tell you.

 

[David_NC]

There were no units above the SX-1010; it was the top-of-the-line when it was being made. As for the SX-1050 having better sound than the SX-1250, I don't believe it. Not only would the engineers at Pioneer have listened to them and decided to make changes if that were the case, it also would have been noticed at the countless stores that sold the various Pioneer units, where salespeople would be switching back and forth between the different models all day long. I have never seen a claim from the era where anyone said any such thing.

I have read some posts where people claim that the middle of the line models sound better than your SX-1050 and the SX-1250. Aside from having owned several models myself over the years (I kept the SX-1250 and got rid of the lower models I have owned), again, back when they were new, not only would Pioneer engineers have been listening to them and fixed any such problems, if they failed to notice, again, the countless sales staff who were switching between models all day long would have noticed and said something about it. Have you ever seen any claim from 40 years ago or earlier in which ANYONE said that the lower models sounded better? If so, please provide a reference for us to check.

This is not to disparage the lower models; they sound fine. I had, at one time, a Pioneer SX-450, and it really was a decent unit. I could certainly see it as a viable option. But it was not as good as the higher models, no matter what any owner of an SX-450 might tell you.

I'm aware that the 1010 was the top model when it came out. However, upper models, such as the 1250, 1280, and 1980 were what I was referring to. So, an SX-1280 is a higher model than an SX-1010. Based on your logic, the SX-1980 would have had better sound quality than the SX-1280, which was not my experience decades ago and is not the experience of anyone I know or have read about (on AK, for example).
Even more importantly, my post said "I've often read that the SX-1010 and 1050's had somewhat better sound quality that the models above them, but who knows." That indicates that it was others' opinions, and that I don't even know if it was true. Search AK for other's onions on these models, and you'll see what I was referring to. The main issue that was mentioned is that the Pioneers from the late 70's onward, which includes the 1980, was a general cheapening of parts. From a lot of posts that I've read, and from personal experiences of friends who happen to be AK members, is that the 1010 was the best sounding of the bunch (that I mentioned) but had reliability issues, mainly with the power supply getting toasty. This corresponds exactly to what my local buddy experienced with his 1010 (it now has a redesigned power supply in it) and to what my best friend in high school's father experienced with his 1010. I still loved that receiver, though.

 

[Pyrrho]

Yes, people have claimed that various models sound better than others. There are a lot of claims made online, and I frankly don't believe quite a few of them.

When the SX-1010 was being phased out, and the SX-xx50 series was introduced, how many people at that time wrote that the new series sounded worse? If the SX-1010 really sounds better, why is it that NO ONE seems to have noticed at the time when people could compare new units, side by side, in the stores (such stores, by the way, were common in the 1970's)? So, no, I don't believe such claims that are made now.

But you are going beyond what I state when you state:

Based on your logic, the SX-1980 would have had better sound quality than the SX-1280...​

I doubt that, in most situations, that most people would be able to distinguish between them in a properly conducted double blind test. Of course, if the SX-1280 were driven to clipping and the SX-1980 were not, then it should be easy enough to distinguish between them (assuming, of course, that one has not gone deaf from the excessive volume that would likely be involved in driving the SX-1280 into clipping). There also could be a difference heard if the listening were done with the tuner, in an unusual case in which the SX-1280 had a problem and the SX-1980 did not (the SX-1980 had a very, very slightly better tuner), though most times, both would likely sound the same in practice.

As for the late 70's having "a general cheapening of parts", it is certainly true that the quality of construction went down after the SX-xx50 series; the SX-xx80 series, though well-constructed, is a step down in that regard. One need not even open the cases to see this; one can look at the wrap-around heat sinks on the SX-1250 and compare with the SX-1280 and SX-1980 and see that they did not bother with making the heat sinks wrap around any longer; it was cheaper to have the heat sinks as was done on those newer units. The heat sinks, of course, are not a problem with the sound, nor even with how well it is otherwise constructed, but it does show quite clearly that they were looking to save money on the construction of the newer units. But construction quality is not the same as sound quality, though many people seem confused by this, which explains some of the fanaticism about McIntosh gear. I have read, on several occasions, that once someone tries a McIntosh piece of equipment, they never go back to other stuff. That, of course, is the purest BS nonsense. I have owned McIntosh gear, and I got rid of it and do not own any of it at this time. Nor will I ever own any of it ever again, unless I get something at significantly less than "fair market value." Sure, it is well-constructed, but that does not make it sound better.

Of course, some of what is going on when people listen to things today can be explained by the fact that 1970's gear is all over 40 years old, and so there is a very good chance that some random piece that one gets ahold of may not be functioning up to specifications. A properly functioning SX-450 may well sound better than any higher model that has serious problems.

 

[merlynski]

I'd like to add an SX-750 and an SX-1250 to the stable. Then I would need more speakers, then I . . . uh . . . yeah . . . hmmm.

Older tequila, faster horses, younger . . uh, more music!

 

[Super Noob]

Which Pioneer is the best... it will always be the one you own.



Have yet to run across one that I didn’t think sounded really nice; however, all my units are fully restored.

 

[Pioneer.user]

Everything in the SPEC series

According to others Elite series like pioneer m90a power amp and preamp c90a is better than Spec. Elite series is considered by some to sound as good as sansuis or better, better than alphas like sansui 907xr. So I'd add Elite.
Why Noone mentioned hiend Exclusive series? Hm? I see here only receivers are popular, but for me receivers are always a compromise.

 

[Pioneer.user]

In Amplifiers the Spec Series is without a doubt the most sought after

The most sought after might be Pioneer exclusive m7/c7 which was totl model and ultimate stereo set by pioneer with astronomical price tag

 

[Pyrrho]

... I see here only receivers are popular....

In the first response to the opening post, I mentioned 4 receivers, and at least three times as many components that were not receivers.

Also, the question of what is most sought after is a different question than what is best. I only addressed the question of what was most sought after.

There are some components that are highly sought after by a very few people, and so those would not quality as the most highly sought after generally. For example, among those who still want laserdisc players, Pioneer is probably the most sought after brand, with some truly high end pieces (the best were never released in the U.S.):

https://moesrealm.com/home-theater/guides/laserdisc-guide/

But the majority of people do not want a laserdisc player. Probably, most people don't even know what one is.

Regarding the Elite series of components generally, there are a few that some people want, but Pioneer put the name "Elite" on quite a few things that are not that high end. And on some old surround receivers that are now way out of date, which is a class of product that is not highly sought after. But, yes, some of the Elite series are sought after, though many people have a nostalgic interest in the earlier pieces from the 1970's. The Exclusive series is also too obscure for most people to be looking for them, though, again, some of them are of great interest to some people. Certainly, one could have a fine system with Elite or Exclusive gear.

 

[rickb119]

When the SX-1010 was being phased out, and the SX-xx50 series was introduced, how many people at that time wrote that the new series sounded worse? If the SX-1010 really sounds better, why is it that NO ONE seems to have noticed at the time when people could compare new units, side by side, in the stores (such stores, by the way, were common in the 1970's)?

At that time, the only reviews were in magazines, which also carried paid advertising. I doubt they would disparage a product they were being paid to advertise. The same is/was true for in store sales. They are being paid to sell the current product. They're not going to tell a prospective buyer that the previous model was much better. Especially if the previous model is either discounted (less money for the sales person) or no longer available. At that time, the push was for more power, not necessarily better fidelity. At least for the majority. Then, it was power over fidelity. Today, it's convenience over fidelity. Again, for the majority.

So, no, I don't believe such claims that are made now.

Those claims are made by some very knowledgeable, experienced people. I don't consider myself to be in that group however, I also much prefer the sound of my SX-1010 to my SX-1250.

 

[Pyrrho]

At that time, the only reviews were in magazines, which also carried paid advertising. I doubt they would disparage a product they were being paid to advertise. The same is/was true for in store sales. They are being paid to sell the current product. They're not going to tell a prospective buyer that the previous model was much better. Especially if the previous model is either discounted (less money for the sales person) or no longer available. At that time, the push was for more power, not necessarily better fidelity. At least for the majority. Then, it was power over fidelity. Today, it's convenience over fidelity. Again, for the majority.
....

It is interesting how differently people remember old reviews:

Back in the "golden age" of high-end audio hardly a month went by that you couldn't find and read a negative review in The Absolute Sound or Stereophile which excoriated a particular manufacturer's newest offering.​

https://audiophilereview.com/amps/why-your-dads-300-1980-receiver-still-sucks.html

 

[rickb119]

It is interesting how differently people remember old reviews:

Back in the "golden age" of high-end audio hardly a month went by that you couldn't find and read a negative review in The Absolute Sound or Stereophile which excoriated a particular manufacturer's newest offering.​

https://audiophilereview.com/amps/why-your-dads-300-1980-receiver-still-sucks.html

Good point. It would be interesting to know if the "particular manufacturer's newest offering" was also being advertised in said magazines. If so, I concede the point to you.

 

[xlbee]

There are some Pioneer units I suspect won't be top of mind but are very rare and very sought after.
SD-1100
CT-A1
C-Z1
C-Z1a
H-Z1
M-Z1
M-Z1a
P-D1
PL-L1
S-F1

 

[marysdad]

I love my SX-950. May not be the biggest or best, but sure sounds sweet.