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muffled/dark jazz piano sound (Brubeck, Evans)

duncan

duncan

flâneur in training
Something that's kinda bugged me for a while. Two of my favorite pianists, Bill Evans and Dave Brubeck, left behind a discography of brilliant performances but with a consistently odd piano sound, to my ears. Compared to modern jazz recordings at least, most of their recorded output sounds dull, bloated, possibly tape-saturated with a kind of grainy distortion at times. There's hardly any attack phase on the piano strings. They sound almost not like a piano all, at least not like any piano I've heard in a live acoustic space.

I'd long just written it off to recording technology changing over several decades, but tonight on another listen to Brubeck's Time Out, it's obvious that the overall recording is well-engineered, and there's nothing wrong with the sound of the rest of the quartet. The percussion in particular sounds lovely, a full range sound with a realistic texture, all the transients in play. So I wonder what the deal is with the piano sound. Was it a microphone placement preference? Was it legitimately how these guys wanted to make the piano sound - persistent use of the mute pedal maybe?

Or, you know, am I nuts and it sounds fine to everybody else. Other recordings I'm thinking of are Sunday at the Village Vanguard (Evans), Explorations (Evans), Bossa Nova USA (Brubeck).
 
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That’s an odd observation. I’ve got probably 50 titles between Brubeck and Evans on CD, SACD, and vinyl.
The sound of the piano differs obviously but I have never thought it was out of place with the rest of the recording.
 
I have the 200g QRP pressing of Take Five and it sounds outstanding, piano sounds good , not the best I’ve heard but for its time and the cleaning up the engineers did on this album it’s pretty darn good. Piano is probably the hardest for a system to get right so I believe that’s a challenge for all of us , however my setup does an admirable job .

Audiofreak71
 
You said compared to modern jazz. I think it likely has a lot to do with the mic used and the mic placement for piano in the last 50-60 years. That said, regarding "dull, bloated, possibly tape-saturated with a kind of grainy distortion at times". I get some of that but it's never bothered me to the point of being negative.
 
cubby01 said:
You said compared to modern jazz. I think it likely has a lot to do with the mic used and the mic placement for piano in the last 50-60 years.
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I have (tucked away somewhere) some more recent Evans recordings, including I Will Say Goodbye and You Must Believe in Spring. Should listen to those again as a point of comparison to see how his piano sound reproduced in the late 70s. Might help me make more sense of this. An even more fair comparison would be with other piano trios recording in the late 50s / early 60s but I don't seem to have collected much else in that vein.
 
My experience with Dave here on dad's "old" LP's and whatever streaming from whenever makes me think it has more to do with speakers than anything else.
My large Rectilinear 111 and Wharfedale W70D are often said to be great jazz speakers. But not so true when compared to my much faster and harder hitting Kenwood Kl-777a and Pioneer CS99a. Nothing dull about. They don't get a lot of love but even they have their uses.
May I ask what speakers are you using?
 
I’ll venture a guess and say that the piano’s lid might have been closed or mic’d further away, so as to not overpower the mix. It also coulda been an upright, although I’m inclined to doubt that, given that it’s a Dave Brubeck record. They do tend to sound much more muffled and boxed in, owing to the fact that they’re, well, a box.

Also, as a pianist, I can definitely say that a lot of older American pianos have that kinda thuddy dull sound to ‘em-older Baldwins, Kimballs, even some of the smaller Steinways. Very different from the glassy, crystalline European pianos (Bösendorfer, Bechstein, etc.) or the crisp clarity of the Japanese ones (yes, Yamaha makes more than just stereos and motorcycles!). All probably would have been found in your average recording studio back then. Spend an hour or so at your local piano shop this weekend, and chances are you’ll find something that sounds exactly like those old records. It’s just like going to a hifi shop-every brand has a certain sound signature, and things get increasingly more refined as the price (and size) skyrockets.
 
FluxT said:
... Also, as a pianist, I can definitely say that a lot of older American pianos have that kinda thuddy dull sound to ‘em-older Baldwins, Kimballs, even some of the smaller Steinways. Very different from the glassy, crystalline European pianos (Bösendorfer, Bechstein, etc.) or the crisp clarity of the Japanese ones...
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Thank you, there's a wrinkle that hadn't occurred to me, and it might solve most of this mystery. I'd been trying to attribute the differences to just about every other possible factor and not the instruments themselves, and even their lid positions as you point out. I had let myself lately start to think "a piano doesn't/shouldn't sound like that" but of course there can be different ways a piano legitimately sounds. And it's fair to say that a more subdued sound (maybe I needn't consider it "muffled") could fit much of Bill Evans' musical aesthetic at least.

quiet said:
My experience with Dave here on dad's "old" LP's and whatever streaming from whenever makes me think it has more to do with speakers than anything else.... May I ask what speakers are you using?
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Boston A150s, recently recapped; currently driven by a loaner Denon POA2200 amp, and before that, a mid-range Rotel. But I've always been quite happy with how they reproduce most other piano recordings, both jazz and classical; by "modern" as referenced in the first post I was thinking of recordings by Bill Charlap, Keith Jarrett, Brad Mehldau, Michel Camilo among others. Even, it occurs to me now, the Tsuyoshi Yamamoto trio (I have "Misty" and "Brown Sugar" here) had a more "crystalline" sound as FluxT describes it, and those recordings are from 45 years ago.

So yeah, right now I'm willing to think I've just let myself build up kind of a mental block about the old Evans and Brubeck recordings. Attitude adjustment incoming, and more listening and rethinking to do.
 
Dug up a pic of the original recording session, from a fan site. They used a full concert grand with the lid up, mic’d above the strings. Can’t see what brand it is, but my Steinway senses are tingling. Recipe for a pretty strong and clear piano sound, but a skilled pianist like Bill would be able to coax some pretty subdued sounds out of such a monster with the una corda (soft) pedal and a delicate touch.

It’s definitely a bit buried in the mix on Take Five, but it’s supposed to be. On Strange Meadowlark, where it’s featured more prominently, it’s certainly not dark or muffled. Definitely had that classic jazz sound to it-warm, but still very clear. Nice strong fundamentals, with some tube drive to it.

http://www.davebrubeckjazz.com/Take-Five-&-Time-Out/Time-Out-~-Recording-Session-and-Other-Images#E119A095-165E-44DB-847A-D1C04B2F5EEB.jpeg
 
Your observation about Strange Meadow Lark is helpful - I'm listening to it now, and you're right. Really just overall, I have just needed to get it through my head that there isn't something "wrong" - that artistic choices by the performers and engineers contribute to what I'm hearing, along with equipment differences. And then all this stuff doesn't have to get in the way of enjoying the music.

And incidentally, I love that picture.
 
I have the original recording of take 5 by Bruebeck and I admit the piano is not brilliant that one might expect from a Steinway Piano. Baldwin and especially Busendorfer pianos are not Steinways. But that said I wouldn't call the recording dark, but rather faithful. People have been listening to so many overly miked performances now days they have forgotten what a real piano sounds like in a concert hall un amplified. I am not saying this is the case here. You may just have a bad pressing or a recording where bad remastering took place.
 
FluxT said:
Dug up a pic of the original recording session, from a fan site. They used a full concert grand with the lid up, mic’d above the strings. Can’t see what brand it is, but my Steinway senses are tingling. Recipe for a pretty strong and clear piano sound, but a skilled pianist like Bill would be able to coax some pretty subdued sounds out of such a monster with the una corda (soft) pedal and a delicate touch.

It’s definitely a bit buried in the mix on Take Five, but it’s supposed to be. On Strange Meadowlark, where it’s featured more prominently, it’s certainly not dark or muffled. Definitely had that classic jazz sound to it-warm, but still very clear. Nice strong fundamentals, with some tube drive to it.

http://www.davebrubeckjazz.com/Take-Five-&-Time-Out/Time-Out-~-Recording-Session-and-Other-Images#View attachment 1667783
Click to expand...
Looking at that pic makes me think of how huge Morello's playing was on that album. I've got a mono needle drop of an original Columbia spinning right now, and damn does he sound good.
 
Brubeck and Evans both used a single Neumann M49 microphone under the lid with the lid up. I like the way Brubeck's piano sits in the mix, nice and laid-back, not overpowering.
 
duncan said:
Other recordings I'm thinking of are Sunday at the Village Vanguard (Evans)
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I really like that album. Have it on CD and for a 1961 live recording I think it's lovely. And the Waltz for Debby album from the same sessions.

I guess I didn't over-analyze the sound, I was captivated by the performance of the musicians. I'll investigate it some more.
 
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