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My surprising test results: high end 80s CD player vs modern low end DVD player

Well, I'm having trouble with this for several reasons.

One is that I have no idea what a CDP-230 is. If you mean CDP-CX230, that doesn't remotely get into the realm of "high-end."

The Denon DCD-1300 is a mediocre-sounding player at best. I used to be a Denon dealer, and sold these players. It's very dead and flat-sounding, with no life or soundstage to speak of.

While I've never heard an NEC CD-810, if it sounds like any of the other NEC players I HAVE heard, I would run from it as fast as humanly possible. I have no doubt that a cheap APEX probably sounds better.

I don't mean any disrespect here, but all of the players you've chosen as "high-end" don't rate a second look.

I'm sorry, but a cheap DVD player with a hashy switching power supply, cheap PC soundcard DACs and God-knows-what for an output stage is not my idea of sonic nirvana. Not to mention the jitter inherent in a player made with a $1 Mabuchi spin motor.

Take something like a CDP-707, or X7, or a Pioneer PD-91 or any number of decent players out there from that era, and there is just no comparison.
 
I'm with you on your analysis OP. All my older CD players sound like ass, cheap little DVD players are an instant drop in improvement, for <50 bucks new.
 
Best sounding DVD player I've heard (and own) is the DVD side of a Hitachi DVD/VCr combo about 10 years old. Not the cheapest unit (but also not the most reliable), but the music quality is as good as my vintage HK 5600 CD player. My sister owns one of these as well, and was surprised when I showed her how well it sounded through her Carver and B&W's.
 
Can't draw the conclusion from such a small sample size. I was using a DVD player about 3 years ago before swapping it out for the circa 1984 Technics built MCS 6801. The MCS has a much smoother sound the DVD player tended to sound harsh. That said they're not all equal I've heard plenty of bad vintage players and plenty of good ones.
 
RickB said:
If the older stuff had been sitting unused and not powered up, it might be worthwhile to leave it plugged in and on for at least 48 hours before making tests...Theta had in their owner's manuals not to expect the units to sound as good when they were first turned on as they would 48 hours later...stating that if you turned them off to wait 48 hours before making any critical listening comparisons...
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Dear Lord. The Yamaha CD changer in my signature hasn't been switched off in, well, it's gotta be MONTHS at this point. The drawer mech is weak, so I just leave the chassis cover off and replace the discs without opening the drawer... I've considered making a plexi cover to fit on with hinges I like the easy access so much.

Hey, it sounds great!

(Don't worry, everything else gets powered up an down in a precise fashion - just the changer stays permanently on)
 
PacificStereo said:
Well, I'm having trouble with this for several reasons.

One is that I have no idea what a CDP-230 is. If you mean CDP-CX230, that doesn't remotely get into the realm of "high-end."

The Denon DCD-1300 is a mediocre-sounding player at best. I used to be a Denon dealer, and sold these players. It's very dead and flat-sounding, with no life or soundstage to speak of.

While I've never heard an NEC CD-810, if it sounds like any of the other NEC players I HAVE heard, I would run from it as fast as humanly possible. I have no doubt that a cheap APEX probably sounds better.

I don't mean any disrespect here, but all of the players you've chosen as "high-end" don't rate a second look.

I'm sorry, but a cheap DVD player with a hashy switching power supply, cheap PC soundcard DACs and God-knows-what for an output stage is not my idea of sonic nirvana. Not to mention the jitter inherent in a player made with a $1 Mabuchi spin motor.

Take something like a CDP-707, or X7, or a Pioneer PD-91 or any number of decent players out there from that era, and there is just no comparison.
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I agree with you P.S. I sold Sony and Denon and the models mentioned were not their best sounding units, and the best sounding Denons and Sonys did not hold up to the Mission, Meridian, Proceed or ML gear just to name a few. The models quoted seem wrong also. DCM was used by Denon for their multi players IIRC, but the 1300 was a single so it was a DCD. That Sony model does not ring a bell, though they had so many in different markets you could miss a few, but the CDP-302 does. That was not the best sounding CD player I have heard. I could not find any info on NEC DCD series players.

To put things in context, if I have correctly assumed the real identity of the CD players tested, I can say that back then the Mission PCM II sounded much better than the Sony and the Denon. I just sold my PCM II because the Stax Quattro II (approx. 1988) I just acquired sounds FAR better. My cheap DVD players do not compete with the Stax. I do not think this proves older CD players sound better than all new DVD players, because I have not heard all the new DVD players so making that statement would not be meaningful. However I can say the machines tested by the OP were not high end so they do not support the stated conclusion. No attack intended, just sharing my experience.
 
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Ok just to clarify- I should not have used the word high end or audiophile when describing these old players- what I meant was that they are QUALITY- meaning made in Japan, super heavy- all the audiophiles I know tell me that heavy=quality and overall they are beautiful. The transport mechanism used on all these players seems really nice compared to a crappy DVD player. Also, the old CD players are mostly metal and not as much plastic- which I really like. I'll have to try other old players. There is a Kyocera DA-810 at the shop I will test too but I think I will find the same results.

The Sony model- sorry for my mistake- it was a CDP-302
http://thestereoclub.blogspot.com/2009/01/sony-cdp-302-cd-player.html


I will admit that my test subjects could not have been THE best examples of old vintage CD players but I was trying to use 3 I had on hand from 3 different manufacturers in hopes that I would find that the old players I had on hand would sound better than the DVD player.

So yes it appears the Denon 1300 was not the top of the line by any means- maybe my results would be different if I tried the famous Denon 1500.

As far as the NEC- it was called a NEC CD-810. Here is a link to it- looks pretty high end to me (by 1988 standards LOL).

http://audio-database.com/NEC-AUTHENTIC/player/cd-810-e.html
 
FWIW when I pitted my Rotel RCD-975 (circa late 90's) against a cheapie Zenith DVD player my wife has in her office, playing my test cd of various tracks as well as other various stuff, the differences, if there were any, were by no means obvious to me. I expected to hear a greater difference based on experience auditioning CDPs when I got the Rotel new. Then, there was an obvious difference to myself and others who listened with me.

Recently I got an ADS CDP from about '87 and while I didn't formally test, my vague impression was that it was a little harder to listen to all day than the Rotel. I, too, think D/A converters have come a long way... but also hard to generalize.

I've not heard a high end CDP since I got the Rotel so I have no idea what they can sound like. And maybe the subtleties are lost on the rest of the playback chain, I don't know.
 
Alkeys said:
That I meant was that they are QUALITY- meaning made in Japan.
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Even back in the day Japan did put out some **** (not a ton but some)

Alkeys said:
and all the audiophiles I know tell me that heavy=quality and overall they are beautiful.
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Their is some truth their (a small amount) but you can load a realistic STA-110 full of rocks and make it heavy that don't make it great.

Alkeys said:
I'll have to try other old players. There is a Kyocera DA-810 at the shop I will test too but I think I will find the same results.
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The DA-810 was a second level player (right below the DA-910) so it was probably in the neighborhood of 700-900 large (just a guess), that is a high end player. Though I'd going with an open mind saying it'll be **** cause the others were all ready makes you bias against it right from the start.

and I'll admit D/A converters have come a long way, so why not just use a vintage well built nice looking player as a transport and plug it into a nice new D/A converter. The Best of both worlds.
 
my next upgrade is a Yaqin Tube buffer for under $200.00. i have found out i prefer a warmer more "musical" presentation then a totally accurate one, so until i can afford a hybrid amp that will give me close to both, a yaqin seems like it will fit the bill perfectly
 
Vintage_Hi-F said:
and I'll admit D/A converters have come a long way, so why not just use a vintage well built nice looking player as a transport and plug it into a nice new D/A converter. The Best of both worlds.
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Considering the CD standard hasn't, what difference is it going to make whether the chips are faster or have a better sampling rate? That Sony uses the TDA1541, arguably one of the finest DACs ever. A quick search of the web will show how beloved it is. I have several similar Sony's, and they sound absolutely wonderful so I'm thinking there is some other issue here.

That real difference is the analog section. I find it hard to believe and have yet to hear for myself, any cheap DVD player match the sound of my Sonys. Even my Tascams with their cheap CD drives sound 10x better.
 
Well I will perform some more tests.

I dunno my initial reaction was that the older players were more fatiguing if anything. That was all I was trying to say- though you are right there are so many variables maybe any kind of testing is dumb LOL.

I am by know means an expert- just wanted to share with everyone my findings- Anyway, I will keep trying out different stuff- :)
 
By the way Damage- what DAC's does that NEC CD-810 use and how is it supposed to compare to the Sony's TDA1541?
 
Hell yeah Balls to the Wall is classic- glad somebody gave me some props for that **** :)
Hats off to you Vintage Hi-F

OK I did demo some of my ECM label jazz too :)
 
A few thoughts:

1. The models selected were not the best of their time; try an early Sonic Frontiers or Wadia, or at least a true TOTL from a major brand, and repeat the comparison. The results will be closer, and possibly reversed.

2. You are comparing 20-30 year old capacitors and such with new circuitry. You need to recap/restore those old CDPs, before the comparison becomes meaningful.

3. The laser heads used are different. Theoretically, a DVD player SHOULD out-perform an early CD player, because it has a finer, closer-tracking laser. For similar reasons, try a top-end Laserdisc (LD) player with direct output for a CD transport, through a good DAC, and prepare to be amazed. It may well out-perform your cheap DVD player [I've done this test, and mine did!].

4. DAC technology has improved considerably, along with electronic jitter-control, etc... BUT the actual transport mechanisms have, in most cases, become flimsier, with players relying more on electronic circuitry than mechanics to reduce errors.

The solution? Simple! -- Use the old, heavy, well-built player as a TRANSPORT ONLY, and feed the signal "direct out" to a modern DAC processor. If you use a low-jitter model like the early Sonic Frontiers, great, but otherwise make sure you feed the signal through good anti-jitter circuitry first, and then through the DAC (today many DACs combine both functions). The result? Best of both worlds!
 
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