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My tube setups not sounding as good as my SS

This is an interesting discussion, my current listening room although smaller than the last one I use both SS and tube amps. I use a Marantz 2285B as a preamp and a 250M amp for the front speakers, but the back speakers I use a pair of Music Paradise 401 tube amps. I rolled the tubes by putting in GE 6550s and Sylvania tubes for the preamp section. This is all backed up by a 250 watt sub. The sound may I say is breath taking. Everybody that listens to the system is impressed, I have be listening to stereos for years and this is the best set up I’ve had.
The reason I went this way was so I could choose my listening environment at any time just by turning off amplifiers as I wanted and also enjoying a blended sound. The tubes definitely are enhanced by the sub amp.
Listening taste is definitely determined by how you feel not by wattage. The tubes do clearly sound better for classical and jazz. The SS is for crank it up rock and sometimes a blended sound for progressive rock is the best I find.

Experimentation is the key and remember it is your ears you are trying to please.

:music:
 
I also use an Eico HF81 and did try the Dynaco A25s. My take was that they were just not efficient enough and forced me to overdrive the HF81. Also, I really didnt think they sounded all that good. Then again, I'm not a proponent of using "old" speakers. I feel that speaker technology has progressed the most out of all the audio technologies and a well designed modern speaker will beat the pants off the old guys.
in my own experience this has been proven many times.
 
mikey5967 said:
I also use an Eico HF81 and did try the Dynaco A25s. My take was that they were just not efficient enough and forced me to overdrive the HF81. Also, I really didnt think they sounded all that good. Then again, I'm not a proponent of using "old" speakers. I feel that speaker technology has progressed the most out of all the audio technologies and a well designed modern speaker will beat the pants off the old guys.
in my own experience this has been proven many times.
Click to expand...

Mike,

Did you recap your A25's? I also found both pair I have had woofer screws that were spinning in the MDF or whatever material that front baffle is.

I recapped mine, added 0.047 PIO Bypass caps (NOt sure if this really makes a difference but what the heck), new binding posts, and put fresh wood pieces behind the baffle for the woofer screws to catch.

There are dignificantly improved.

Now they aren't current technology and won't have the same brilliance, etc. of modern speakers. But to me that extra presence and high end is annoying and it's why I like AR's, Dynaco's, KLH... But I realize I am not likely the norm.

I just put my Sui 9090DB on the Dynaco's for comparison. Sounds better. So maybe tubes just aren't it for me. :dunno:
 
Shacky,

Don't give up yet. What are U using for cabling? No. I am not going to suggest any $$$ stuff.

SS may sound better on the Klipsch because the impedance may swing a lot and SS has the power to stay in control.
 
shack,

When I had my Scotts--pretty similar to your units--I had good results with newer speakers in the 90db efficiency and up category.

Sound was very good--not extremely loud, let's say modestly loud.

If those amps are @ 20-30 wpc, restored and ready to go, they can sound very, very nice with speakers 90db and up. They won't rattle the windows, but they will get reasonably loud and sound good doing it.

If you need or want some real volume--100db and up is the way to go. Not cheap, not easy to find though. Worth it? You bet.

Tubes are not an easy mistress to live with. Like all mistresses--like I've had one, yeah right--they cost a bit of coin.
 
Sometimes tube gear can run a bit too slow for faster paced music. I know its a generalization but the OP's statement is general.
 
blueyez,

I hope you don't think I'm being some kind of smart ass or know-it-all, because I'm really not. Honest.

I think the electrons moving from the cathode to the plate can move plenty fast to handle any kind of music. the signal moves them, not the other way around. Tubes are not any slower than anything else that uses electrons to reproduce music.

Best,

John
 
olblueyez said:
Sometimes tube gear can run a bit too slow for faster paced music. I know its a generalization but the OP's statement is general.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "slow"? Not enough power? Starts clipping? Power supply not keeping up (if thats possible)?

"....a bit too slow...." is a bit vague for me.

Also could you give an example of "faster paced music" (Might give it a try on my gear and see what happens)? :scratch2:
 
heekma said:
blueyez,

I hope you don't think I'm being some kind of smart ass or know-it-all, because I'm really not. Honest.

I think the electrons moving from the cathode to the plate can move plenty fast to handle any kind of music. the signal moves them, not the other way around. Tubes are not any slower than anything else that uses electrons to reproduce music.

Best,

John
Click to expand...

Hey John, you ever realize tubes can different? Mullard short plate 12AU7 is slow and muddy and an RCA 12AU7 Cleartop sounds bright and fast. Surely you are joking and you dont think every tube manufacturer made tubes that sound the same.

Looks like Les is saying it is a function of the power supply too. I dont like anyone who cant be a smart ass. Cant trust a person like that.
 
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tshoejohn said:
What do you mean by "slow"? Not enough power? Starts clipping? Power supply not keeping up (if thats possible)?

"....a bit too slow...." is a bit vague for me.

Also could you give an example of "faster paced music" (Might give it a try on my gear and see what happens)? :scratch2:
Click to expand...

Speed metal is a good example. Complex music sometimes sounds overwelming on a warmer tube rig. Punk is another that moves at a good pace. I never liked Rock when I had warmer tubes on my preamp, besides rolling off the highs it just did not keep pace like a more neutral tube.

I also mentioned that because your amps are both older and low wattage. I wouldnt expect an old console unit to keep up with a newer tubed unit like a CJ or a hybrid Vincent etc. I would expect they would do great things when listening to someone with a six string and a mic and stool.

Like the attack and decay is too slow to keep up with the music? That make sense? opposite of dynamic. I dont know much about topology but it always seemd like the warmer the tube the less dynamic (or slower) it was.
 
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olblueyez said:
Sometimes tube gear can run a bit too slow for faster paced music. I know its a generalization but the OP's statement is general.
Click to expand...

I think it is the power supply not tubes per se. Elvis and Cash were recorded
with tube gear. To ask an old Scott to keep up with Alvin Lee is pushing it.
Tubes can certainly do it but the system will be expensive. If you lean towards hard rock and metal SS, IMHO, is the way to go. The power supply
in an old tube amp is not up to the task. I had some Cary 300B amps that had an optional bank of capacitors to help with complex music.

However, an Onix SP3 tube amp and efficient speakers will certainly kick the woofers. They are cheap too. Google it. :yes:
 
Les Lammers said:
I think it is the power supply not tubes per se. Elvis and Cash were recorded
with tube gear. To ask an old Scott to keep up with Alvin Lee is pushing it.
Tubes can certainly do it but the system will be expensive. If you lean towards hard rock and metal SS, IMHO, is the way to go. The power supply
in an old tube amp is not up to the task. I had some Cary 300B amps that had an optional bank of capacitors to help with complex music.

However, an Onix SP3 tube amp and efficient speakers will certainly kick the woofers. They are cheap too. Google it. :yes:
Click to expand...

Thanks, I will look that up, I meed a power amp and I dont know what I want yet.
 
is this an appropriate place to put that popcorn thing?

Seriously, though, if the vaunted HF81 and Klipsch don't do it for you, then tubes probably don't really suit you. There's nothing wrong with that. It seems like you've given it a chance. When I heard my first tube equipment as an adult, I just loved it.
 
olblueyez said:
Speed metal is a good example. Complex music sometimes sounds overwelming on a warmer tube rig. Punk is another that moves at a good pace. I never liked Rock when I had warmer tubes on my preamp, besides rolling off the highs it just did not keep pace like a more neutral tube.

I also mentioned that because your amps are both older and low wattage. I wouldnt expect an old console unit to keep up with a newer tubed unit like a CJ or a hybrid Vincent etc. I would expect they would do great things when listening to someone with a six string and a mic and stool.

Like the attack and decay is too slow to keep up with the music? That make sense? opposite of dynamic. I dont know much about topology but it always seemd like the warmer the tube the less dynamic (or slower) it was.
Click to expand...

I think I see what you are getting at.

I have “Nevermind the bollox..” somewhare, I’ll give it a try.
 
I think there are two separate issues here:

A. Not really liking the Klipsch. They are great speakers they just don't seem to be my cup of tea. I had same reaction with NLA.

B. Though I like the allure of tubes, I'm finding I like big watt SS better. I'd probably be happier with tube pre and SS amp. But I'm getting close to throwing in the towel as I have too many nice SS receivers to try to displace.

Not going to look to sell the tube stuff just yet. But that would be the next step. For now going to sell the Forte's.
 
olblueyez said:
Hey John, you ever realize tubes can different? Mullard short plate 12AU7 is slow and muddy and an RCA 12AU7 Cleartop sounds bright and fast. Surely you are joking and you dont think every tube manufacturer made tubes that sound the same.
Click to expand...

Ya know, I typed a somewhat detailed response to this, then deleted it.

oldblue--I just don't think we'll prolly see eye to eye anytime soon. And that's OK by me. Different folks, different strokes.

Then again, we're getting a bit off track from the OP.

The OP has some nice amps. I say keep 'em, try out speakers until you find a match you like, or if you don't, go your own way, maybe let the tube amps go to someone who wants 'em.



Peace,

-J
 
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