Need advice - Current best value (the sweet spot) for an audiophile preamplifier/processor

[dstewart]

Seeking advice. My Sunfire Theater Grand Processor (gen 1) is having problems and there are simply too many choices available. Has anyone recently done this research and come up with a best choice or two? I can pick up one of the last generation Sunfire models for $600-1000, but want to exercise due-diligence to see if something even better is in that price range. I use this room exclusively for the extraordinary music experience.

What I have:

• Pioneer CD transport using digital out
• Sunfire TGP
• Carver m1.5 driving a pair of Dahlquist DQ20s in the front
• Carver m1.0t driving a pair of Polk model 12s on the side
• Carver m200 driving a pair of Advent Legacys in the rear
• Polk sub
• M&K sub

My best sounding DSP setting with the above was Dolby Pro Logic. Source direct (pass through) driving all six speakers without any processing or time delay is a close second.

Anyone with a similar setup that can recommend a "best choice" replacement for my dying Sunfire?

 

[KB007]

So you're really looking for a 6 channel system (no centre channel?) which will really mean looking for a 7.1 system / processor. Given most new systems are Atmos, a lot of the previous gen are available at cheap prices. Do you need things like HDMI, or other newer features?

I'd keep your eyes peeled on US Audio Mart or Agon for used pieces, you may be able to pick up a gem from 3-4 years ago.

 

[fill35u]

Dedicated processors are expensive, AVRs are cheap. Go figure, since the AVR's have the additional parts that are by far the more expensive than the processing. Economics of scale and marketing...

I have a Sunfire TGP IV (as well as a spare TGP I). She's getting long in the tooth, but still working. But she's basically a big chunky box of atmosphere! Only 10% of the internal volume is used. The TGP I, however, is packed full. That's how far the technology came in a short period of time.

If you go with a non-Sunfire product, you'll lose the DSP implementation of Sonic Holography. You could run through old analog C-9 units on the way to your amps.

BTW, all those speakers and no center channel??? That M200 is a rarity, too.

 

[dstewart]

Update and more information...

Thank you for the comment about the Sunfire IV. I've not been able to find a hologram configuration in my room that works well so that is not an issue.I also tried using the center channel. Significant improvement on vocals but the sound environment collapsed. Tried moving the center pair all over the place and they just destroyed the image no matter where I placed them.

I also should have explained the front vs. side speakers better. Both pairs of monitors (the DQ-20 and Polk-12) are driven off the "front" channel. My best sound was created by directing the Dahlquist directly towards the listener, about 6 feet apart, 12 feet to the prime listening position. Then the Polks are on that same front channel, about 12 feet apart, directed at the side walls. I use a ROLLS controller to split the front channel into two amps. That provides a volume control because the Carver amps do not have a master volume. Result is the Dahlquist provides primary and extreme clarity, the Polks reflect at a lower volume and fill in the room. Unusual but I did a lot of experimenting to come up with this arrangement and it provides a sweet spot large enough for several listeners. That combination is wonderful in stereo alone (source direct with no processing), but it is absolutely amazing when I tune in a rear speaker pair with a delay. I can literally dial the size of the room up or down based on the music selection.

So this thread is due-diligence on my part before I replace that failing Sunfire. Anyone out there that knows of an audiophile preamp with; remote volume control, digital input, outputs for front, back (with DSP), and a pair of subs, that is an extraordinary value right now?

 

[Hifiler]

I'm still unclear, how many independent channels do you run? Are the subs on the same channel?

 

[dstewart]

I run the Sunfire "front" channel pair to a splitter (the ROLLS), and from there to separate amps feeding the Dahlquist and Polk monitors. So I have 4 "front" speakers. The Sunfire has 3 sub outputs and provides internal crossover at 80mhz, so I have 2 subs connected to those dedicated outputs. The Sunfire "Rear" channels go to the smaller amp and the Advent speakers. The "Center" and "Side" channel outputs are not being used. I've tried them all and the more basic front/rear/sub combination creates my best sound field in this room. This is for music enjoyment only.

So for a replacement, I would like to have (minimum):

• Remote control
  
• Front (main)
  
• Digital input (from my CD transport)
  
• 2 sub outputs
• rear output with a time delay feature (could be DSP or could be a simple manual time delay)

 

[Hifiler]

Unconventional but sounds like it works for you!

One thing if you're not aware, if you are running straight-up Dolby Pro Logic, your rear speakers are playing the same signal in mono, not stereo (basically like the center channel, but played through 2 speakers), and are limited to a frequency range of something like 100 Hz to 7 kHz. This was because the rear speakers in this setup were meant for movie surround effects.

I would look for a pre-HDMI processor from a company like NAD, Integra, Cambridge, etc..., and connect everything like you do now, and then experiment with the different surround modes. I bet you will find something that works even better than Pro Logic. However it probably will be difficult to find a unit with more than a single sub out, the Sunfire was unusual in that regard.

You might even be able to find something for a very reasonable price from a higher end company like Arcam or Linn, as pre-HDMI pre-pros really have declined in value.

Something like an Arcam AV8 would be perfect. Beautiful unit with amazing build quality that is great with both music and movies. Also to consider would be a Linn 5103 if you can find one working. This unit was reputed to have an analog preamp section very similar to the Linn Klimax Kontrol uber pre-amp, and sounds amazing with music. I have owned both of these units and would recommend either one.

 

[Hifiler]

One more thing, I just checked, and the Arcam AV8 indeed has 3 sub outs, and the last two on eBay have sold for what I consider surprisingly low amounts (check the "Sold" listings).

Good luck!

 

[dstewart]

Wonderful! That is the response I was hoping for. Did not realize the Dolby Pro Logic did that, but it explains the perception that I was trading clarity for a better surround image. Shopping now, but still open to similar preamp recommendations (anyone else?)

 

[fill35u]

You don't need to worry about having two sub outputs. The Sunfire processors send the same signal to all sub outputs. Just use a splitter cable.

Just curious, which Rolls unit are you using?

 

[tcdriver]

Wonderful! That is the response I was hoping for. Did not realize the Dolby Pro Logic did that, but it explains the perception that I was trading clarity for a better surround image. Shopping now, but still open to similar preamp recommendations (anyone else?)

Welcome to AudioKarma. It sounds like you have a very nice setup that is carefully optimized to your taste. Have you considered just getting your Carver repaired?

 

[AvFan]

Anyone out there that knows of an audiophile preamp with; remote volume control, digital input, outputs for front, back (with DSP), and a pair of subs, that is an extraordinary value right now?

I'm not sure but you may want to check out the Outlaw Model 976, $929, to see if it would work in your situation. I currently use one in my family room HT setup. It is a 7.2 home theater pre/pro that has excellent DACs and seems pretty flexible. It does not have DSP but it does have a Parametric Equalizer for all channels. Outlaw teamed up with REW software to allow manual input of adjustments determined by the software based upon in-room measurements. The REW software is free and a suitable mic is about $100. The adjustments calculated by REW are wide open to the users' taste (e.g. flat room response, stepped, etc.). I liked that option as it seemed the HT pre/pro market was getting hung up on automatic room correction schemes and I didn't know what the auto room correction would really do (concern about over driving amplifiers to correct room modes). If that level of effort is too much the Anthem AVM-60 has auto room correction, albeit at a higher cost, that gets good reviews.

 

[dstewart]

You don't need to worry about having two sub outputs. The Sunfire processors send the same signal to all sub outputs. Just use a splitter cable.

Just curious, which Rolls unit are you using?

ROLLS DA134. Can control up to 4 pair or can be split to provide individual (left/right) on two pair. Really great for balancing the room.

 

[dstewart]

Welcome to AudioKarma. It sounds like you have a very nice setup that is carefully optimized to your taste. Have you considered just getting your Carver repaired?

Yes. I contacted the 2 shops still repairing Phase Linear and Carver, neither will service the gen-1 TGP. It is entirely possible mine could be repaired with a simple firmware update. I have the technical skill/equipment needed, but have been unable to locate a copy of the firmware and/or command line instructions.

 

[fill35u]

Yes. I contacted the 2 shops still repairing Phase Linear and Carver, neither will service the gen-1 TGP. It is entirely possible mine could be repaired with a simple firmware update. I have the technical skill/equipment needed, but have been unable to locate a copy of the firmware and/or command line instructions.

Sunfire used to have firmware updates available for download from their website. IIRC the procedure involved burning to a CD, then playing back through the TGP somehow. I've got a copy of the last TGP IV update, but I don't recall if there was one available for the TGP I. Have you tried contacting Sunfire?

 

[dstewart]

Sunfire used to have firmware updates available for download from their website. IIRC the procedure involved burning to a CD, then playing back through the TGP somehow. I've got a copy of the last TGP IV update, but I don't recall if there was one available for the TGP I. Have you tried contacting Sunfire?

Yes. Sunfire changed ownership and the company no longer provides support for these legacy products. I also contacted the best known Phase Linear/Carver/Sunfire service facilities (both are in Washington State) and all reported no longer working on them nor can thgey provide the firmware. Response from one was "too many had upgraded their hardware so the final firmware version started causing more problems than it solved, so we stopped."

 

[whoaru99]

I'd look into a Marantz pre/pro. Haven't kept up on all the models and features but wouldn't surprise me for models even two or three back to have all the features you're looking for. Think you will find a good mix of performance and value there.