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Need fast advice on which amplifier to buy for Tannoy speakers (Pioneer, Luxman...)

itsikhefez

Active Member
Hi all !
This is my first post here.
I've been looking around the forums, very impressive and knowledgeable.

I need help deciding on which 2nd hand amp to buy and my budget is very limited. The system is going to be in a small room in my apartment, where I usually work on my computer.
The speakers are Tannoy Saturn S8 floorstanders, which are pretty sensitive at 91db. The recommend wattage of Tannoy is 30-110W.

The choices I have in the local 2nd hand market for approx the same price (around 120$) are:
Pioneer SX-750
Pioneer SA-7500 II
Yamaha RX-550
Luxman LV-111 + Pioneer F229 Tuner
Luxman R-5030
Marantz 2235 (no lights)

Thanks for the help
 
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Unfortunately, those Luxmans are not of an era where they were at their best, and the Yamaha is not far behind. For the money, I would go with one of the Pioneers or the Marantz (if you want to get the lights looked at/replaced). The build quality and internals of the Pioneers and Marantz are far beyond the more modern Luxmans and the Yamaha, and they will hold their value much better over time as well. However, IMO, the Poineer SA-7500 II is not as well built as the "Mk I" version, and does not have the same build quality of the SX-750. So this leaves the SX-750 or the Marantz 2235. I am sure the Marantz might get some votes over the Pioneer here, but if it were me, I would choose the Pioneer SX-750. It has more power than the Marantz, and it will help to get those Tannoys boogying. Do a Google image search of the internals between the two, and the SX-750 is built more substantially as well. That internal build quality also shows a weight difference on the scales too: 30.1 pounds for the Pioneer compared to 23.1 pounds for the Marantz. I owned an SX-750, and I enjoyed it. In comparison, I think the Marantz will overall be a little "warmer" sounding, and while the SX-750 is still warm in its own right, it tends to have a little more "energy" in the bass and treble with more power over that particular model of Marantz. Anyway, I hope this helps. Happy hunting! Cheers. :)
 
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Have not heard these units but I am a believer that specs can and do tell you a great deal about a device.

The Luxman 5030 is very quiet (102 dB signal to noise for the line and 77 dB for the phono, both impressively quiet) and very low harmonic distortion, .05% vs the Marantz's signal to noise at 80 and 65 db and distortion at .25%, 5 times as high.

I purchased my first amp as a kit, unheard because I could not find an assembled version to listen to. My guiding factors were bandwidth, signal to noise and distortion. It worked. Best sounding little 15 watt transistorized amp I have ever heard, before or since.

I would go with the 5030 given that it would meet your needs for inputs, control features and aesthetics.

Good luck with whatever you purchase.

Shelly_D
 
I agree, this is a hobby no need to move to fast. You may make a mistake and regret it. BTW what kind of music do you listen to?
 
Why do you need the advice fast?

Probably because those models are available to him/her online at the present time, and some of them will be bought very quickly, especially since it is the weekend. Just an assumption though.

Have not heard these units but I am a believer that specs can and do tell you a great deal about a device.

The Luxman 5030 is very quiet (102 dB signal to noise for the line and 77 dB for the phono, both impressively quiet) and very low harmonic distortion, .05% vs the Marantz's signal to noise at 80 and 65 db and distortion at .25%, 5 times as high.

I purchased my first amp as a kit, unheard because I could not find an assembled version to listen to. My guiding factors were bandwidth, signal to noise and distortion. It worked. Best sounding little 15 watt transistorized amp I have ever heard, before or since.

I would go with the 5030 given that it would meet your needs for inputs, control features and aesthetics.

Good luck with whatever you purchase.

Shelly_D

Well, sadly many of the numbers in that era of gear (the 80's) were grossly overstated for marketing purposes. Furthermore, numbers don't tell you about the tonality and overall audible performance of a given piece. Also, when distortion numbers are stated below 1% it becomes inaudible to the human ear. For instance, many of the valued vintage pieces that so many people cherish have THD (total harmonic distortion) numbers in the 0.1% range and some even as high as 1%! Same goes for tube gear. Tube gear tends to have more so-called "noise" than solid state, but those differences in THD numbers are not detectable by the range of human hearing. While specifications can be generally helpful, there is a threshold where those numbers become completely irrelevant because they cannot be detected by the range and sensitivity of human hearing. My suggestion is to choose with your ears, not with a spec sheet. ;)
 
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Thanks for the advice so far.
Basically Eywadude was right with his assumptions.. These were some items that are currently available and I had some offers with some of the sellers.
I agree that I would probably make a bad choice if I hurry, with the fact that many of the options I laid out are not first choice, perhaps I will be a bit more patient so that my budget can fit a better option.

I listen mostly to Classic/Modern Rock, Alternative, some Soul ... and Classical music when I feel like it.
In the next price range, some options available are:
Luxman L2, L3
Pioneer A656, A403R
NAD 7240/7250PE and for a bit more NAD C355BEE.
SONY TA-1140, TA-2650

Would any of these choices be a better upgrade than the previous models? I won't have the option to audition them with my speakers.

Thanks again!
 
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A lot of your decision should depend on the overall sound signature you desire.

The Marantz will have a warmer overall sound, the Pioneers tend to be a bit brighter with the Luxman gear somewhee near the middle.

The NAD gear is regarded fairly well but there are some questionable choices made with the quality of the parts used .

If these units are in a single location perhaps you take your speakers there and audition the gear playing through your speakers.

Decisions made in haste many times lead to regret, patience will pay its rewards.
 
I'd lean towards the Pioneer with the Marantz as a close second. However, as mentioned, that depends on what kind of flavor you'd like.

I see the pioneer as a cleaner, less colored sound. Marantz warmer and quite fun with old rock, anything thumpy.

FYI, I have a variety of both manufactures.
 
Thanks for the advice so far.
Basically Eywadude was right with his assumptions.. These were some items that are currently available and I had some offers with some of the sellers.
I agree that I would probably make a bad choice if I hurry, with the fact that many of the options I laid out are not first choice, perhaps I will be a bit more patient so that my budget can fit a better option.

I listen mostly to Classic/Modern Rock, Alternative, some Soul ... and Classical music when I feel like it.
In the next price range, some options available are:
Luxman L2, L3
Pioneer A656, A403R
NAD 7240/7250PE and for a bit more NAD C355BEE.
SONY TA-1140, TA-2650

Would any of these choices be a better upgrade than the previous models? I won't have the option to audition them with my speakers.

Thanks again!

Of those mentioned, the only one I would say "no" to on a sonic standpoint would probably be the Pioneer A403R. Definitely not one of Pioneer's better efforts. The Pioneer A656 is a little better with better internals, but I can't say much about it though, as there don't seem to be many people who have one to comment on one. The NAD's can certainly be very good units, but as mentioned above, unfortunately they have a checkered reliability record with questionable parts selection and build quality. The C355BEE is a newer unit, and was generally well regarded when they came out, but as far as reliability goes, I am not sure. I would mention though that I bought a NAD 316BEE brand new about 4 years ago, and within 18 months I had to send it in for parts on its main board to be replaced and re-soldered. Also, it had one of the oddest, most disjointed sounding soundstages I had ever heard in any piece of audio gear. It was awful, and it was an issue that was NOT fixed by the fixing of the main board either. In the end, I wound up selling it shortly thereafter. :P

Also, I should clarify about my comment about Luxman gear in the 80's, as I was not being 100% accurate, and what I said could be misleading: Luxman's overall build and sound quality generally took a nosedive in this era. This was mostly due to Alpine buying Luxman in the early to mid-80's and cheapening the nearly the entire Luxman line. There were exceptions though. Some of the Luxman gear from before the Alpine takeover was also decent stuff, but for the most part, when Alpine took over, most of the Luxman line took a hit. However, the L2 and L3 were before the Alpine takeover, and are decent pieces. If you go to this vintage Luxman site, you can see that the L2 and L3 are generally fairly well regarded by Luxman fans for that era (just scroll down and click on the link):

http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/luxman2.htm

However, with that said, the L2 and L3 are of a different era from the so-called "golden era" of Luxman gear (and most vintage gear in general), so it will have a different sonic signature than the earlier Luxman sound. The L2 and L3 have an overall much lighter weight build than the earlier stuff. They will probably sound less "warm' sounding, and may seem to sound more "pristine", but some may say that this sounds a little too "sterile" and "analytical". These are generalities of that era. However, that is up for the individual listener to decide. ;)

As for the Sonys, they are both decent units, although if I had to pick one, I would probably go with the TA-1140. The TA-2650 is probably also a decent unit too, but I know some Sony fans say that they are a little more "clinical" sounding than the earlier models such as the TA-1140, and other sony receivers from the same era. I can't personally vouch for the Sony sound, but I have read that some of those older Sonys can sound very transparent with a very large soundstage. I haven't tried any vintage Sony stuff yet, but they are on my own list of stuff to try.

Anyway, to sum up, the best advice I can give you is to read as much as you can about the different manufacturers and different models to help give yourself a better idea of what their general sonic signature is like. From that, it will help you to know what some will have to offer in regards to your won tastes and sensibilities. However, knowing what kind of "sound" you are looking to achieve certianly helps when looking for gear. And if you don't know, my other suggestion is if you can, buy a few pieces (maybe not all a once, but over time) to see which pieces of gear best suit your ears. Only your ears will know what you like. :) However, learning about certain stuff never hurts either. But essentially it all boils down to what you like. Although, you can learn quite a bit here on AK too which will help to send you on a clearer path. I know there will be lots of people here willing to help you out and give you some advice. Cheers. :)
 
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Probably because those models are available to him/her online at the present time, and some of them will be bought very quickly, especially since it is the weekend. Just an assumption though.



Well, sadly many of the numbers in that era of gear (the 80's) were grossly overstated for marketing purposes. Furthermore, numbers don't tell you about the tonality and overall audible performance of a given piece. Also, when distortion numbers are stated below 1% it becomes inaudible to the human ear. For instance, many of the valued vintage pieces that so many people cherish have THD (total harmonic distortion) numbers in the 0.1% range and some even as high as 1%! Same goes for tube gear. Tube gear tends to have more so-called "noise" than solid state, but those differences in THD numbers are not detectable by the range of human hearing. While specifications can be generally helpful, there is a threshold where those numbers become completely irrelevant because they cannot be detected by the range and sensitivity of human hearing. My suggestion is to choose with your ears, not with a spec sheet. ;)

By the 80's the specs were finally coming into conformity due to the FTC regulations that took effect in the 70's. It is the earlier specs that cannot be relied upon.

It is true that below a certain level, distortion cannot be heard. It is also true that the best way to decide if you like something is to listen to it. In the event that is not possible, the specifications can be used to evaluate how accurate the reproduction of the music will be. If you like accurate input / output tracking, that is, the output is as identical to the input as possible, just more power and low enough impedance to drive speakers, then specs of that era are a very good way to evaluate the gear. If you are one that likes and enjoys euphonic distortion, then I would agree that that Luxman is probably not the right piece to choose, precisely because it is driving those distortions out of the listening experience.

The OP asked for opinions. Since I am one that highly values accuracy in reproduction with such distortions, however pleasing they may be, I gave my opinion and the reason why.

Shelly_D
 
I know my dad has an old Sansui AU-217 lying around. I think I will put it to use and track the local listings until something worthwhile comes along.
Can anyone list the better regarded Pioneer, Luxman's I should be looking at?
Based on the replies here, if I were to buy now I would probably go with the Luxman L2/L3.

Regarding other comments:

As a Tannoy owner since '72.. Albeit IMO YOUR tannoys are .. Imposters :-)
Seriously Suggest this: http://www.akitika.com/GT101.html
You will NOT be dissapointed.

Which preamp do you use with that?

However, with that said, the L2 and L3 are of a different era from the so-called "golden era" of Luxman gear (and most vintage gear in general), so it will have a different sonic signature than the earlier Luxman sound. The L2 and L3 have an overall much lighter weight build than the earlier stuff. They will probably sound less "warm' sounding, and may seem to sound more "pristine", but some may say that this sounds a little too "sterile" and "analytical".

Which Luxman's then are recommended?

Older Krell

Anything specific?

A lot of your decision should depend on the overall sound signature you desire.

The Marantz will have a warmer overall sound, the Pioneers tend to be a bit brighter with the Luxman gear somewhee near the middle.

I have some experience with newer stuff. I had a Marantz PM7200 and Denon PMA-510AE. I like the signature of the PM7200 but the best word I could use to describe the sound is "boring". I could never enjoy anything out of it. The Denon to me sounded like a mess, instruments were all over the place which also made the sound not enjoyable.
From my past experience, I guess I am looking for something on Neutral, not too bright, not too warm (If such a thing exists)
 
...It is true that below a certain level, distortion cannot be heard. It is also true that the best way to decide if you like something is to listen to it...

Completely agreed. :)

...the specifications can be used to evaluate how accurate the reproduction of the music will be.

I can't agree to that at all. Specifications merely show how accurate the reproduction is of whatever test signals they use as a "standard" criteria to come up with those numbers. But here's the thing: the human ear/brain does not hear in predetermined frequency test signals and sine waves. Test signals and sine waves are mathematically created and interpreted to create data. Again, the human ear does not hear in mathematical equations. The human ear/brain is infinitely more complex than that. For instance, it is possible to build several different pieces of equipment from tube to digital, and at all different price points with identical "high end" specifications on paper. And by the theory you have set forth, as long as they have the same specifications on paper, then they should be able to accurately reproduce the music in the same way, as long as they all share the exact same specs. However, I guarantee you every single one of them will sound different. This is because of the components (and quality of components used) are different, and the construction, design, and layouts are all different as well. Here's another example, have a look at these two models:

Yamaha R-S500 ($350)
- 75 WPC
- 10 Hz-100 kHz
- 0.015% THD
- 100 S/N ratio

Esoteric A-100 ($19,000)
- 45 WPC
- 20 Hz-60kHz
- 0.9% THD
- 98 S/N ratio

By purely looking at these numbers does this tell us that the Yamaha is able to reproduce the music with more accuracy, detail, clarity, soundstage, and overall tonality? More than likely not. Specifications are not hard and fast rules by any means. There are many Best Buy receivers with "amazing" specs, but I wouldn't necessarily go by those numbers to tell me that they "reproduce the music better".

Also, what these specifications cannot tell you is what kind of tonality an amplifier section has. There is no metric for that, and there is a reason for that: it is because while testing equipment can in theory record and "interpret" a violin being played, it cannot tell you why it sounds good. It cannot have the emotional connection that the human brain has when listening to music. That is one reason why test tones are generally used, and not music (amongst other technical hurdles in doing so). There is a reason why audio is not an absolute science - because scientists and measuring equipment cannot crack the code that is the human ear/mind enigma. Specifications also do not take into account how the human ear/brain interprets sound from one person to the other. This is where the fallacy in getting too wrapped up with specifications lie - in that it is seen as an absolute science in how the human brain interprets sound. But it isn't that easy. The human brain interprets music in boundless and immeasurable ways, and it differs from one person to the next. ;)


...The OP asked for opinions. Since I am one that highly values accuracy in reproduction with such distortions, however pleasing they may be, I gave my opinion and the reason why.

Shelly_D

Cool, no problem with that. No harm taken or intended. :)


...Which Luxman's then are recommended?...I guess I am looking for something on Neutral, not too bright, not too warm (If such a thing exists)

Well, "neutral" is a subjective thing, and it varies from one person to the next. It's kind of something you have to find for your own ears I suppose. :)

Of the Luxman's in that era that are "suggested" (including a few from the Alpine era) would be some of these, although, these are certainly up for debate (as always, audio is very subjective):

L-1A
L-10
L-2
L-210
L-215
L-220
L-225
L-230
L-235
L-3
L-4
L-410
L-430
L-435
L-5
L-510
*L-525
L-530
L-550
*LV-109
*R-115
*R-117

An asterisk (*) denotes gear designed under the Alpine ownership.

I would say the L-2xx series is a good value and can sometimes be had for cheap. The L-4xx series and the L-5xx series are better yet, but are generally harder to find, and are usually priced higher as well. Of note, the L-10 is a slimline model, but it is built really well with nice internals. It is a dual mono design with two power transformers and two sets of caps in it for each channel, but it is a rare find. Then there is the R-115 and the Big Kahuna; the R-117. Both are very well regarded receivers. The R-115 is rated at 70 WPC, but the R-117 is a powerhouse, and is rated at 160 WPC! R-117's can be found, but they usually command a bit of a premium. But sometimes one can be had for a steal.

As for your question about other Pioneers and Luxmans (other than the ones I mentioned), do you have a maximum budget in mind for what you are looking for? I only ask because knowing what your budget is will help us to help you with suggestions to suit your budget. Again, I hope this helps. Just let me know if you have any other questions. Cheers. :)
 
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One of the most neutral pieces of gear I have ever owned was an Onkyo A-10 integrated amp. The best/worst thing I would say about it was that it didn't sound like anything. They are good looking, built well, reliable and reasonably priced. A truly hidden gem.
 
As for your question about other Pioneers and Luxmans (other than the ones I mentioned), do you have a maximum budget in mind for what you are looking for? I only ask because knowing what your budget is will help us to help you with suggestions to suit your budget.

My max budget would be around $500, but keep in mind that would you could buy with $500 in the US is not what I could buy where I live.
The issue is that people tend to overprice in the second hand market here (expect you to bargain for a decent price, which will still be overpriced). For instance, some of the used prices:
L2 - 200$
L3 - 350$
R5030 - $130
LV-111 - $115
L-31 - $515
L-235 - $200 (Unsure about condition)

I don't mind buying from eBay but usually the items are heavy which makes shipping expensive (as well as I need 220V current)
 
If your budget is around $500 you could find a very nice Yamaha A-S500 integrated amp; actually for far less than your max budget. They are very clean and detailed with ample power (85wpc). If you need a built in tuner try the Yamaha R-S500, 700.
 
If your budget is around $500 you could find a very nice Yamaha A-S500 integrated amp; actually for far less than your max budget. They are very clean and detailed with ample power (85wpc). If you need a built in tuner try the Yamaha R-S500, 700.

How do Yamaha's usually match with Tannoy DC's ? The Tannoys are fairly Neutral
 
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