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New AT-LP120 or older Technics SL-D303?

majick47 said:
Since there is a possability to offend someone when commenting on choices of turntables, cartridges etc I'll abstain from any similar threads in the future.
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You don't have to walk off in a huff, just avoid posting your opinion as fact. You don't own either of the turntables in question but want to qualify one of them as "junk" because of specs you read on a website and refuse to listen to people who have personal experience with the turntable in question. You don't have to stop posting, just be smarter about it.
 
illini said:
There are some grumpyheads and blog queens here, but it's generally a helpful and friendly forum. These are my AK related absolutes:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=430554

I would make sure your player isn't damaging your records.

Cheers. :music:
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I figure they are everywhere, and everyone has a right to their opinion of course. But it's all in the presentation.

As for the LP120, concern about damaging my records was the reason why I replaced the cart on Day One. But the ATP2 was probably fine, it just tracks heavy.

majick47 said:
I didn't intend to offend any AK members re their choice of a turntable and this also includes Chinese turntable mfgs, I'm sure they can make very good turntables if requested to do so. Since there is a possability to offend someone when commenting on choices of turntables, cartridges etc I'll abstain from any similar threads in the future.
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As I wrote above, it's all the presentation, especially when some of us are owners of said equipment. Instead of "it's garbage", how about "the specs are unacceptable for my particular requirements". In the former comment you're making an absolute, but in the latter comment it's understood that your own thresholds of acceptability are what's be used as a metric.

Again, it's all in the presentation.
 
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Greyson said:
You don't have to walk off in a huff, just avoid posting your opinion as fact. You don't own either of the turntables in question but want to qualify one of them as "junk" because of specs you read on a website and refuse to listen to people who have personal experience with the turntable in question. You don't have to stop posting, just be smarter about it.
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This viewpoint is symptomatic of what's been driving me away from the audio hobby. We have objective yardsticks for turntables -- measurements of rumble, wow and flutter -- that can help us identify worthy products. Telling the full story of how a turntable sounds would require a much broader suite of measurements and exhaustive correlation to the opinions of trained listeners, so the limited specs we have can only offer guidance in separating the wheat from the chaff. Unfortunately most of us don't use the specs that we have. We rely instead on subjective opinions, not all of which are accurate, to guide us in our purchase decisions. In other words, we fail to draw a distinction between "I like it" and "It is good."

The problem with not drawing that distinction is that the teenager down the block with the pickup truck that makes rude low-frequency noises at ridiculous levels likes the sound system in his truck, and the neighbor with the white van speakers and BPC receiver likes his system, too. Absent any objective or informed subjective guidance, their opinions are no more or less valid than ours. Do we really want to pretend that all opinions about audio gear are equally valid, or do we want to admit that some opinions may be more informed than others, particularly if those informed opinions are based on both objective tests and years of critical listening?
 
illini said:
Pics?
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technics-pioneer.JPG


:music:
 
Looks great lamberticus! I think that track light or whatever you call it looks cool, that's why I got one for my daughter. Sounds good too!
 
Dr Tinear said:
This viewpoint is symptomatic of what's been driving me away from the audio hobby. We have objective yardsticks for turntables -- measurements of rumble, wow and flutter -- that can help us identify worthy products. Telling the full story of how a turntable sounds would require a much broader suite of measurements and exhaustive correlation to the opinions of trained listeners, so the limited specs we have can only offer guidance in separating the wheat from the chaff. Unfortunately most of us don't use the specs that we have. We rely instead on subjective opinions, not all of which are accurate, to guide us in our purchase decisions. In other words, we fail to draw a distinction between "I like it" and "It is good."

The problem with not drawing that distinction is that the teenager down the block with the pickup truck that makes rude low-frequency noises at ridiculous levels likes the sound system in his truck, and the neighbor with the white van speakers and BPC receiver likes his system, too. Absent any objective or informed subjective guidance, their opinions are no more or less valid than ours. Do we really want to pretend that all opinions about audio gear are equally valid, or do we want to admit that some opinions may be more informed than others, particularly if those informed opinions are based on both objective tests and years of critical listening?
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I finally agree with you on something. It is in fact ultimately a combination of factors that determine whether something is good or garbage. Specs/numbers/measurements only tell part of the story. Specs/numbers/measurements tell us how a particular component is SUPPOSED to perform...not necessarily how it WILL perform. Nevertheless, it is very important to take the time to read the specs/numbers/measurements. I tend to somewhat disregard measurements because they generally will not determine how a component will perform in a "living room", "home listening room" environment...factory measurements are done in more of a "lab" type setting. The other critical piece is to listen to the component. Indeed, when you listen to a component, you will know if it's in fact "good" or "garbage".
 
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iLUVanalog said:
I finally agree with you on something. It is in fact ultimately a combination of factors that determine whether something is good or garbage. Specs/numbers/measurements only tell part of the story. Specs/numbers/measurements tell us how a particular component is SUPPOSED to perform...not necessarily how it WILL perform. Nevertheless, it is very important to take the time to read the specs/numbers/measurements. I tend to somewhat disregard measurements because they generally will not determine how a component will perform in a "living room", "home listening room" environment...factory measurements are done in more of a "lab" type setting. The other critical piece is to listen to the component. Indeed, when you listen to a component, you will know if it's in fact "good" or "garbage".
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This is very true. The problem I have with these threads is, too many people will pipe in to put a piece of gear down, purely based on specs. I will have less of an issue if someone who has actually owned the gear and has feed back, over someone who has not heard it, and tells me they know is crap...Just because. Listening to an item will give you a better feel, than comparing specs. They are a good start, but sitting down and having a listen is the most important part:thmbsp:
 
lamberticus said:
What P-mount cartridges would be better, let's say under $70?
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In my opinion, there isn't anything wrong with the AT311EP P-mount cartridge. It is very similar to the AT92ECD, which a lot of people seem to like. The AT311EP has a higher output level than the AT92ECD. For the price you are looking at, it would be pretty hard to beat this cartridge.
 
wlmill said:
In my opinion, there isn't anything wrong with the AT311EP P-mount cartridge. It is very similar to the AT92ECD, which a lot of people seem to like. The AT311EP has a higher output level than the AT92ECD. For the price you are looking at, it would be pretty hard to beat this cartridge.
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I agree. I bought a AT92ECD just cause it's cheap and I wanted to hear what you get for less than 30 bucks. Sure, it isn't a nude square shank grain-oriented highly polished esoteric stylus profile, just a plain old industrial grade 3x7 bonded elliptical. But it sounds pretty good! :thmbsp:
Plus you get a nice screwdriver, nifty stylus brush, p-mount to half inch adapter and extra mounting screws/nuts!
 

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Dr Tinear said:
This viewpoint is symptomatic of what's been driving me away from the audio hobby. We have objective yardsticks for turntables -- measurements of rumble, wow and flutter -- that can help us identify worthy products. Telling the full story of how a turntable sounds would require a much broader suite of measurements and exhaustive correlation to the opinions of trained listeners, so the limited specs we have can only offer guidance in separating the wheat from the chaff. Unfortunately most of us don't use the specs that we have. We rely instead on subjective opinions, not all of which are accurate, to guide us in our purchase decisions. In other words, we fail to draw a distinction between "I like it" and "It is good."

The problem with not drawing that distinction is that the teenager down the block with the pickup truck that makes rude low-frequency noises at ridiculous levels likes the sound system in his truck, and the neighbor with the white van speakers and BPC receiver likes his system, too. Absent any objective or informed subjective guidance, their opinions are no more or less valid than ours. Do we really want to pretend that all opinions about audio gear are equally valid, or do we want to admit that some opinions may be more informed than others, particularly if those informed opinions are based on both objective tests and years of critical listening?
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I hope you are exaggerating a bit to write that this would drive you away from the hobby. For one, who cares what the teenager down the block thinks of his booming truck system? In fact, he is more likely to become an audiophile (as he matures) than the guy who doesn't care enough about music to invest time, effort and money into a sound system at all. Sure, some people never really mature - but that's a whole other issue.

Similarly, there are those in this forum of various ages, in various stages of their audio pursuits, with various levels of knowledge, experience and income that impact their acquisition and use of gear. For those in earlier stages, we would not want to discourage them by being too pedantic, would we? Nor really wish to insult them - that can drive them away.

Even those of us who've been involved in this hobby for decades certainly do not agree on everything. We bring a lot to the table as a group, give the best advice we can, and it's up to the guy who asked for the advice to make his own decisions to pick and choose among various viewpoints (or ignore them all).

Sure, specs can tell us some basics about a component, but often in the audio world, as you know, one component will simply provide better sound than another which beats it on the bench. Ultimately, the proof is in the listening - and that is by nature a subjective process.

I believe one must balance the objective with the subjective, specs v listening. Stray too far toward one or the other extreme, and opinions may become rather dicey.
 
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It's not a good idea to put the turntable on top of the receiver. It blacks the ventilation and keeps the heat in the receiver, where it shouldn't be. It also warms the turntable.
 
Azimuth said:
It's not a good idea to put the turntable on top of the receiver. It blacks the ventilation and keeps the heat in the receiver, where it shouldn't be. It also warms the turntable.
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+1

As for good quality p-mounts available now: unfortunately, there aren't many choices in the new market. Grado makes a Black model with p-mount that's probably sonically better than the Audio Technica AT92ECD/3472 or the Shure M92E, but you might get some "Grado hum." Other than that, it's worth checking the used market for something. Remember the cartridge can't really wear out, only the stylus can. And almost all stylii can be replaced with NOS or a good aftermarket.

As for the argument here about the AT turntable, I've been in the guts of one as well as the guts of many Technics. The AT was designed to a) look like a 1200 and b) meet a price point. That in and of itself does NOT make it garbage. Functionally, the table is fine and sounds good for the price point, but it has some build quality issues (why else would an almost new table need a repair?). I was seriously considering buying one to spin 78s until I got one in my shop. It will be a fine starter table for most people and will provide plenty of listening pleasure, assuming they get one that doesn't have manufacturing flaws right off the bat.

Will it last as long as a well-maintained Technics from 30 years ago? In my opinion, probably not.

This is not to disparage the AT table or to tell anyone who owns one that they made the wrong choice. If it works and sounds good, then it is good. I'm just speaking as a turntable repair guy. There's a reason so many of those old Technics are still working, and working well.
 
I just put an H-K T60 turntable /AT92ECD into service for funzies and was pleasantly surprized to hear something I could live with if I was driven seriously lo-budget.
 
musichal said:
I hope you are exaggerating a bit to write that this would drive you away from the hobby. For one, who cares what the teenager down the block thinks of his booming truck system? In fact, he is more likely to become an audiophile (as he matures) than the guy who doesn't care enough about music to invest time, effort and money into a sound system at all. Sure, some people never really mature - but that's a whole other issue.

Similarly, there are those in this forum of various ages, in various stages of their audio pursuits, with various levels of knowledge, experience and income that impact their acquisition and use of gear. For those in earlier stages, we would not want to discourage them by being too pedantic, would we? Nor really wish to insult them - that can drive them away.

Even those of us who've been involved in this hobby for decades certainly do not agree on everything....OR KNOW EVERYTHING. We bring a lot to the table as a group, give the best advice we can, and it's up to the guy who asked for the advice to make his own decisions to pick and choose among various viewpoints (or ignore them all).

Sure, specs can tell us some basics about a component, but often in the audio world, as you know, one component will simply provide better sound than another which beats it on the bench. Ultimately, the proof is in the listening - and that is by nature a subjective process.

I believe one must balance the objective with the subjective, specs v listening. Stray too far toward one or the other extreme, and opinions may become rather dicey.
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Big +1 on this. Well done Musichal.

You cannot go by just one (specs) or the other (listening).....you have to do BOTH.

I added one little detail above (in all caps).

Steve
 
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