New Integrated Amp or add Phono Pre Amp?

[ChronicTiger]

Hello!

I have a Technics SL-D3 with Ortofon 2M Red, as well as a Denon DP-300F with The Vessel A3SE Ultimate Set from LP Gear. The integrated amplifier I use is the Kenwood KA-305. I'm happy with the sound and starting to have little interest in running two turntables. But I am considering upgrading to a Kenwood amp with dual phono inputs. My other thought was to purchase a Phono Pre Amp and just use the AUX on my KA-305. My question is - what is the quality of the phono stage in the ka-305? Are the phono pre amps on the market now considerable better than what's inside the 305? Would spending up to a few hundred dollars on a phono pre amp be a big improvement?

Thanks!

 

[markd51]

I see there's been no replies, but I can comment some, and hope my comments help you.

Firstly, I've never heard your Kenwood model, so there's that, and cannot speak to just how good, or bad the phono section is inside it?

Phono Pre-Amps today have prices all over the board, from probably $29 and up to and exceeding $20,000.
And there's a whole lot in between. There's solid state, and tube as well. Each can have their pros and cons.

Many of the solo Moving Magnet Phono Pre's aren't generally too costly. Whereas the ones for Moving Coils can be. Many of the better built MC Pre's today generally have a selection of adjustment settings in gain and loading to meet a variety of MC Cartridges available, but often they also do have provision as well for MM, (commonly MM's require 47k Ohms loading) and as well many High Output MC Cartridges can work well at 47k Ohms loading also.

It's said by some that MC's with a output of 1mv or higher can work just fine at 47k Ohms. Commonly, gain for most MM Cartridges is in the 40-50db range. And such gain might be suitable for HO MC's as well.

Many vintage pieces of gear were not all that state of the art in regards to phono pre sections, and as you can imagine, everything is built to a price point. There's so much spent here, and spent there on gear like Receivers, Integrated Amps, and Pre-Amps.

Such an example, you're not getting TOTL Magnum Dynalab or Day Sequerra Tuner build and quality in a vintage Kenwood, Sansui, Pioneer, Marantz, or even McIntosh Receiver or PreAmp.

Fast forward to current day, I might go out on a limb here a bit, and say that it's quite possible a stand alone $400-$500 MM Phono Stage could out-perform the MM Phono Stage in a brand new $5000-$7000 McIntosh PreAmp.

Thus in a nutshell, I can probably say this without getting myself into too much trouble here, is that separates can often and will likely outperform "one box" systems by leaps and bounds.

As one example, I experienced this myself 25 years ago, when I began going into separate phono stages, and was surprised that relatively inexpensive outboard Phono Stages in the $100-$200 range were quite good, and better than what I had within a couple PreAmps in use.

It's hard giving advice to any person, because everyone has different needs, has different goals, and also mainly differences in how much money they wish to invest into their audio system.

As for let's say an Integrated PreAmp and Power Amp, some might be content with vintage, and then there's other end of the spectrum, folks shelling out the cash for a state of the art piece of gear like the Gryphon Diablo 300. Heck, I'll take one! LOL

And no, not necessarily saying one has to throw money to no end to achieve pleasing audio. Such can be accomplished on a beer budget when favorably combining select pieces of equipment, and that they have good synergy.

I will refrain from making specific suggestions of a phono pre, but they are out there, research and reviews, plus other's comments might possibly help you better decide which direction you will choose to go?

 

[Fishead]

Hi CT, this is not an unusual dilemma you're in and markd has addressed many of the salient points above. I'll just add that if you do get another Kenwood with 2 phono inputs, you will quite likely still be pretty limited cartridge-wise. True, most of these models offer the second input as selectable between MC or MM carts, but typically, not always, there is very little adjustment for loading. With a separate phono stage, and there are many to choose from, you can find something that will be far more flexible to allow you greater choices with regard to running a wider range of carts.

Since you are pretty happy with the sound of your 305 it seems logical to hang on to that and just get a separate phono stage. Those are well-regarded and sharp-looking integrateds and I'm not surprised you like the sound. I have a Pioneer SA-9100 from the same era, pre-dating your 305 by only a couple years, and it sounds really nice (with 2 phono inputs!) that I use for patio listening now paired with a set of Klipsch Heresys from 1978.....so I'm not surprised you enjoy your system with the 305.

Would there be a big improvement as you ask about? That depends on the rest of your system to some extent, but mostly on what you decide to get should you go this route. There are some really good-sounding phonostages available and that might be your next question.....which one to get? Do some searches here on AK and see what others think about various ones in your price range.

Lastly, should your 305 ever require replacement, you will still have the separate phonostage.....

 

[markd51]

One can think of a Phono Stage just like any other front end piece of equipment, be it analog, or digital.

That it is like a CD Player, a Tape Deck, a Turntable, etc.

There's every flavor under the sun, and price range. One can buy a $129 CD Player, or one can spend , 10K, $20K, even $30K

Even though a CD Player is in the digital realm, they still possess an Analog Output to go to Pre-Amp and or Amp. Usually the industry standard for Phono Stages or other front end gear is 2.5V output.

Fishead has complimented some of my earlier comments with his own.

One common maker for reasonably priced and good Phono Stages is Pro-Ject. It's common that the more they cost, the more adjustability, and often the better the sound with better components used inside.

And there's used out there, a place like Audiogon is one good place with many trusted-honest members and sellers, many audiophiles there change out very nice gear like some people change socks and underwear.

I did such with the last Phono Stage I bought. I bought an absolute mint, like new, hardly used $3000 Sutherland PHD Battery Powered Phono Stage at a $1000 savings. I was more than 100% satisfied with my purchase! A killer Phono Stage.

The seller even shipped the unit before he even received my Bank Check! The day I received the unit, he received my payment. All went well both ends. It took my Vinyl Playback to a much higher level of sonics from a $750 List McCormack Micro Phono Phono stage.

 

[lini]

CT: Had a look into the service manual. The phono stage in your KA-305 is a pretty typical Lipshitz-style implementation, in this case based on a Hitachi opamp (HA1457) with pretty high supply voltage - hence the pretty high phono overload margin. Input capacitance probably around 230 pF altogether. Thus all in all it should be quite alright, provided the parts are still up to spec.

So, if you're happy with the sound, you could also consider a third alternative in form of a simple self-made or ready-made input switch box (which would add another bit of input capacitance, though...). But if you'd nevertheless rather want to try an external phono stage, I'd suggest to go for a model that provides some more load adjustment options, like for example a Pro-Ject PhonoBox S2.

Grettings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

P.S.: Did you already try swapping the cartridges between the Technics and the Denon? Because I'd suspect the Technics to be better than the Denon, and I wouldn't be surprised, if the Vessel A3SE would sound better than the 2M Red.

 

[justjed2]

I agree, the Vessel will be better than the 2M Red on the Technics. My SL-1800 has the same arm, and the Red just sounds OK. It's good for parties, and such, but I don't really care to just listen to it anymore. Upgraded to the Blue stylus and never looked back. Now I trade off between the Blue and the Bronze.

An outboard phono stage can make a difference. How big a difference depends on a lot of things. Your previous experience, for example. The rest of your gear. Your personal preference. Your hearing. In my experience, most stand alone phono preamps below about $200 tend to sound more similar than different. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It makes sense. Less expensive parts, of necessity, less expensive casework, and the difficulty of building a QUIET high quality power supply at a low price. Thus, the plethora of wall-wart powered little black and grey boxes out there.

The only way to know if you will prefer an outboard phono pre is to try one. If they DIDN'T make a difference, we wouldn't likely be having this conversation, because we'd all be listening to the same thing.