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New JJ E83CC frame grid tube...weak after 6 months use in Mac gear?

Ok.
So the word is that according to the Amplitrex tester they have, the tube tests great and that it is at 89% on average of whatever 89% is.
Main thing is that they test identically to the new tubes at the store.

Interesting fact relayed. Apparently some new production tubes test inaccurately on old testers like my Stark/Hickock and vice versa....

Lovely guy named Dave and he has full confidence also after listening to them after testing that they are in tip top shape.

This of course still doesn't answer the question of why this measures so under par here compared to all the old RCAs and whatever old 12AX7s I have lying around.
Strange isn't it?
 
There are only two reasons for a vacuum tube to fail testing on a good quality (and in calibration) tester:

1: It is NOT the type indicated on the envelope.
2: It is, in fact, a "bad" tube.
 
Ok.
So the word is that according to the Amplitrex tester they have, the tube tests great and that it is at 89% on average of whatever 89% is.
Main thing is that they test identically to the new tubes at the store.

Interesting fact relayed. Apparently some new production tubes test inaccurately on old testers like my Stark/Hickock and vice versa....

Lovely guy named Dave and he has full confidence also after listening to them after testing that they are in tip top shape.

This of course still doesn't answer the question of why this measures so under par here compared to all the old RCAs and whatever old 12AX7s I have lying around.
Strange isn't it?
The test should be done at conditions mentioned in the datasheet under "typical conditions"
A tester that uses other conditions will not be accurate as it bases it's data on places outside
the "typical working conditions". I think the amplitrex will be correct here. uTracer too.
Depends of course on the amp in question if it uses a working point at strange places or if
the working point is within the ones mentioned in the data sheet.
A datasheet is here: https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/030/e/ECC83.pdf
 
My Stark tester could never get a good reading on the Sovtek 12AX7LPS. They always appeared as weak. In service their voltage gain was comparable to most others. Chinese 12AX7 tubes always tested high. I'm sure there's a reason.

I don't think new production adheres to the vintage specs. IF you need proof just look at the glass itself. The tube manuals lay out envelope specs in great detail. Get a set of callipers and measure the bottle specs from a cross section of modern tubes. I've done this. They're all over the place. It's so bad that some guitar amps can't use certain brands. The bottles are so fat that they bind on the shield portion of the socket (Fender) or can't fit through the holes stamped into the chassis, I'm thinking modern VOX.

If they are physically different than vintage then it only follows that they are electrically different than vintage.
 
My Stark tester could never get a good reading on the Sovtek 12AX7LPS. They always appeared as weak. In service their voltage gain was comparable to most others. Chinese 12AX7 tubes always tested high. I'm sure there's a reason.

I don't think new production adheres to the vintage specs. IF you need proof just look at the glass itself. The tube manuals lay out envelope specs in great detail. Get a set of callipers and measure the bottle specs from a cross section of modern tubes. I've done this. They're all over the place. It's so bad that some guitar amps can't use certain brands. The bottles are so fat that they bind on the shield portion of the socket (Fender) or can't fit through the holes stamped into the chassis, I'm thinking modern VOX.

If they are physically different than vintage then it only follows that they are electrically different than vintage.
the new i have measured certainly follows spec. It needs to be measured at 100 or 250 volt
where the spec is defined.
Physical dimensions leaves room for variations the important with tubes is that they
follow the electrical spec.
 
Still a mystery to me.
I mean - they were touting this as a direct copy of the Tesla frame grid 12AX7 - surely that must mean they were aiming for similar measurements electrically?
 
Still a mystery to me.
I mean - they were touting this as a direct copy of the Tesla frame grid 12AX7 - surely that must mean they were aiming for similar measurements electrically?
They are measuring as any 12ax7/ecc83 should do!
The problem is "testers" that test at conditions outside it's usable area!.
Mounted in an amp they show DC conditions as any other good ECC83 .
 
I don't trust any company... Don't expect any truth telling... Most tubes I use are American tubes that last decades. Most are used tubes
 
The average Transconductance tube tester takes one (generally) standardized electrical test point as it's point of reference for a "normal" new tube of a given type and uses that reference as the mid-point of acceptability. They then establish a maximum high point and a minimum low point to set acceptable operating boundaries. These test parameters are in most cases those described by the original designer/manufacturer for the type in question.

Circuits are designed with these exact boundaries in mind for a very good reason; the Design Engineer has ascertained that the circuit will continue to function, and meet all operating specifications under all operating conditions, when a tube meeting these parameters is used. There may be,and often is,a certain amount of leeway in most circumstances where a circuit will continue to operate with an out-of-limits tube,but this is not the intended operating condition.

Doing so will likely impair circuit performance in many possible ways ie: reduce gain, increase distortion, limit output level, reduce bandwidth, cause instability/oscillation etc.

The only way to actually validate as to whether a particular tube (either a genuine model from back in the day or some modern offering) conforms to the full operating parameters for it's type is to run a curve plot using a curve tracer. Nothing else will give you the complete story.

And I am in full agreement with Crispy; I don't trust any of the modern manufacturers either. They take far too many liberties when it comes to slapping a number on whatever tube they have on hand that "kinda-sorta comes close" to the number they want to market.

I'm willing to bet that this "new" E83CC is nothing more than a cobbled together hybrid of an ECC88/6922 (frame grid,anybody?) and their ECC83S.
 
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When I test a 12AX7, with my Utracer I have 2 profiles. One the classic operations according to the documentations 250V -2V bias. That gives me an idea of the strength/life of the tube.
Then I test at other operating condition 200V -1V bias which is close to a operating values.
That gives me a better sense of the tube.
If I am unsure, I test it then with my analog Sencore MU150.
 
OP, if you haven't done so already, start testing all tubes you buy prior to use. That way, you have a benchmark you can test against after time in use.

Especially with old testers, results are "relative". More important is the "life test", gas test, and leakage.

Good luck.

jD
 
Paul -- None of the applications you were using those tubes in are particularly demanding on a 12AX7 type tube. In fact, they're all cream puff applications for it.

As was suggested earlier, modern manufacture tubes don't always test properly in commercial tube testers -- which is certainly true -- and there's a reason for it.

Modern versions of 12AX7 tubes do a good job of mimicking the original device -- as long as its the linear portion of the plate curves that are being compared. But get down "in the weeds" of those curves, where very low current operation occurs, and the comparison between vintage and modern production tubes tends to go astray rather quickly. As a result, depending on the circuit configuration the tube is being used in and the current level the tube operates at, mixing vintage circuits and modern tubes doesn't always work so well. I have ably documented this in some positions of Fisher receivers for example, which use boatloads of these tubes.

In commercial tube testers of the trans-conductance or dynamic transconductance type -- even the better ones -- they all take the approach of testing a tube under the conditions of set bias voltage. Some testers don't even allow you to adjust this voltage, while some do. The point is however that you are testing the trans-conductance of each tube type at a pre-established bias voltage setting -- except this is not an accurate way to test an amplifier tube because it fails to account for the mechanical tolerances within the tube.

So take the 12AX7 as is being discussed here. Published information on the tube indicates that under the conditions of 250 plate volts and -2.0 grid volts, the tube will draw a plate current of 1.2 mA, and display a trans-conductance of 1600 µmhos. Buuuuuut, what happens if 250 volts and -2.0 grid volts doesn't cause a particular tube to draw 1.2 mA? If it draws less current, you might say it's because the tube is notably worn. But what if it produces a higher current than specified? Is the tube still worn then? The point is, just as with output tubes, where it's the quiescent current draw that is the important factor (versus the negative grid voltage required to produce it), so it is when testing for trans-conductance. Specifically, it can be shown that the important factor in testing a given tube for specified trans-conductance, is that the plate voltage and quiescent plate current must be accurately set. The grid voltage to produce that current flow then is whatever it is for that particular example. For a bogey 12AX7 then, it will be -2.0 volts under the test conditions given. But this is not how commercial testers work. They test at a set bias voltage -- and because that doesn't account for any mechanical tolerances within the tube, they have to give a wide allowance in terms of GOOD indicated µmhos to allow not only for normal tube wear, but also for tube mechanical tolerances. A set bias voltage should produce the correct current draw -- but if that were true, then we wouldn't need bias controls for properly setting up output tubes, would we. Testing under set current conditions removes the mechanical tolerance issue because then the value of µmhos produced will then be strictly a product of the condition of the cathode -- which is the singular point of wear in a vacuum tube. But adding bias controls and plate current meters to commercial testers starts to increase the cost and slow down the test time, which goes against two of the most basic goals of such devices. Using a set bias voltage then keeps things simple and less expensive, and also less accurate as well.

To be completely fair, there is some value in testing with a set bias voltage, as it will catch tubes that are well off in characteristic -- but the problem is, you don't know if it is off because of wear, or because of mechanical production tolerances. You can only assess that by adjusting the grid bias voltage for the target plate current draw, and then assessing if the grid bias voltage required to produce that current draw is within reason relative to the bogey specification produced by the tube manufacturer. But again, that requires more indicators, more test time, and a more expensive tester. Commercial testers then are really best described as go-nogo devices, and generally not capable of providing any exacting/high accuracy information as to actual condition.

So how does this relate to the E83CC tube of this thread? As is so often accurately stated, commercial tube testers invariably test tubes at far lower voltage and current levels than they see in actual service. Therefore, for a tube like the 12AX7, many (but not all) testers test this tube down in the weeds of its plate curves, and because they test using a set bias voltage format, the modern manufacture 12AX7 often doesn't indicate a test value that the tester manufacturer designated a good tube of that type to indicate, because the tester is based on the characteristics of vintage tubes -- not modern production tubes. All tubes -- new or vintage -- have an initial period where emission is very high, allowing even the modern 12AX7 to initially test well in commercial testers. But after the run-in period is over, and the tube has stabilized at the characteristic it will typically show throughout the rest of its useful life, modern tubes like the 12AX7 may not test well then -- even though they are still quite good, which I suspect yours still are.

Dave
 
Paul -- None of the applications you were using those tubes in are particularly demanding on a 12AX7 type tube. In fact, they're all cream puff applications for it.

As was suggested earlier, modern manufacture tubes don't always test properly in commercial tube testers -- which is certainly true -- and there's a reason for it.

Modern versions of 12AX7 tubes do a good job of mimicking the original device -- as long as its the linear portion of the plate curves that are being compared. But get down "in the weeds" of those curves, where very low current operation occurs, and the comparison between vintage and modern production tubes tends to go astray rather quickly. As a result, depending on the circuit configuration the tube is being used in and the current level the tube operates at, mixing vintage circuits and modern tubes doesn't always work so well. I have ably documented this in some positions of Fisher receivers for example, which use boatloads of these tubes.

In commercial tube testers of the trans-conductance or dynamic transconductance type -- even the better ones -- they all take the approach of testing a tube under the conditions of set bias voltage. Some testers don't even allow you to adjust this voltage, while some do. The point is however that you are testing the trans-conductance of each tube type at a pre-established bias voltage setting -- except this is not an accurate way to test an amplifier tube because it fails to account for the mechanical tolerances within the tube.

So take the 12AX7 as is being discussed here. Published information on the tube indicates that under the conditions of 250 plate volts and -2.0 grid volts, the tube will draw a plate current of 1.2 mA, and display a trans-conductance of 1600 µmhos. Buuuuuut, what happens if 250 volts and -2.0 grid volts doesn't cause a particular tube to draw 1.2 mA? If it draws less current, you might say it's because the tube is notably worn. But what if it produces a higher current than specified? Is the tube still worn then? The point is, just as with output tubes, where it's the quiescent current draw that is the important factor (versus the negative grid voltage required to produce it), so it is when testing for trans-conductance. Specifically, it can be shown that the important factor in testing a given tube for specified trans-conductance, is that the plate voltage and quiescent plate current must be accurately set. The grid voltage to produce that current flow then is whatever it is for that particular example. For a bogey 12AX7 then, it will be -2.0 volts under the test conditions given. But this is not how commercial testers work. They test at a set bias voltage -- and because that doesn't account for any mechanical tolerances within the tube, they have to give a wide allowance in terms of GOOD indicated µmhos to allow not only for normal tube wear, but also for tube mechanical tolerances. A set bias voltage should produce the correct current draw -- but if that were true, then we wouldn't need bias controls for properly setting up output tubes, would we. Testing under set current conditions removes the mechanical tolerance issue because then the value of µmhos produced will then be strictly a product of the condition of the cathode -- which is the singular point of wear in a vacuum tube. But adding bias controls and plate current meters to commercial testers starts to increase the cost and slow down the test time, which goes against two of the most basic goals of such devices. Using a set bias voltage then keeps things simple and less expensive, and also less accurate as well.

To be completely fair, there is some value in testing with a set bias voltage, as it will catch tubes that are well off in characteristic -- but the problem is, you don't know if it is off because of wear, or because of mechanical production tolerances. You can only assess that by adjusting the grid bias voltage for the target plate current draw, and then assessing if the grid bias voltage required to produce that current draw is within reason relative to the bogey specification produced by the tube manufacturer. But again, that requires more indicators, more test time, and a more expensive tester. Commercial testers then are really best described as go-nogo devices, and generally not capable of providing any exacting/high accuracy information as to actual condition.

So how does this relate to the E83CC tube of this thread? As is so often accurately stated, commercial tube testers invariably test tubes at far lower voltage and current levels than they see in actual service. Therefore, for a tube like the 12AX7, many (but not all) testers test this tube down in the weeds of its plate curves, and because they test using a set bias voltage format, the modern manufacture 12AX7 often doesn't indicate a test value that the tester manufacturer designated a good tube of that type to indicate, because the tester is based on the characteristics of vintage tubes -- not modern production tubes. All tubes -- new or vintage -- have an initial period where emission is very high, allowing even the modern 12AX7 to initially test well in commercial testers. But after the run-in period is over, and the tube has stabilized at the characteristic it will typically show throughout the rest of its useful life, modern tubes like the 12AX7 may not test well then -- even though they are still quite good, which I suspect yours still are.

Dave


Once again Dave, thank you for your insight.
 
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