New Phono Preamps vs. Vintage Preamp Phono Stages?

[winegasman]

OK, here's what I'm wondering: Has anyone compared a new "budget" phono preamp to the phono stages of vintage preamps? Specifically, I'm considering the Jolida JD-9 phono stage (tubed) or the Musical Surroundings Phonomena (SS). Both are available used for about 300 bucks.

But there are many vintage enthusiasts here, especially Yamaha enthusiasts, and they've got me wondering: how does the phono stage of an older Yamaha preamp (C-80, C-85, CX-800, etc.) compare to the Jolida or the Phonomena?

By the way, I'm using an Audio Technica OC-9ml Mk II right now, so I'm most interested in the MC abilities of these phono stages.

Thanks!

 

[hakaplan]

I'd be surprised if you could find anyone who's compared a vintage preamp with a new one. They seem to be two separate camps. So, given that, I'll just cast a vote for the Yamahas. I have a C-4 and C-60--my main reason for going for them was that they have two phono inputs, but I think they sound great.

If I were going for a new preamp I'd consider the Hagerman bugle. In fact, someday I may put together the kit and compare it to the Yamahas just for kicks.

 

[winegasman]

Yup - 2 separate camps - but surely

someone besides me experiments with old and new gear, looking for the ideal realization of great sound...on a budget? I'm convinced by all the enthusiasts that the older Yamaha gear is special. In fact, I have an R-500 receiver in my bedroom! But the newer phono stages are quite alluring, and I'm assuming that the manufacturers have made technical breakthroughs in the past 30 years. Have they?

By the way, thanks hakaplan!

 

[prisoners]

It's not just any advancements made in 30 years, it's the condition of something electronic that is 30 years old. Values drift, parts wear out, etc. Most anything that old could most likely use some replacement of parts. At that point it might make more sense to buy new, unless of course you fix it yourself.

 

[gogofast]

i have c-4 and couple of their receivers.
receivers have smoother phono section, i thought.
c-4's phono section has sound that's little too harsh for me - this might be due to my ears being used to tube sound as far as the vinyle sources. nevertheless, they're the most reliable gears i've ever used so far.

yamaha did make some amazingly good sounding and good looking gears that makes you speechless and feel like pissing in your pants. specially the ones that were only sold over in japan - i wish i can get my hands on those native japanese beauties....:drool: (talking 'bout gears - even though i almost off tracked here......)

 

[jfine]

My new P-75 phono stage, (while not exactly lowest budget), sounds smoother and tighter, and slightly crisper highs than my 2325 phono stage. But that could be because:

1) The 2325 phono stage has old caps
2) The P-75 just is a better match with my Dyna cartridge

But it's not night and day difference like swapping the dyna cartridge from a shure m97x, or adding the fluid damper to the 1200. And that could be because the P-75 is not that good of a stage for my system.

The 2325 has a darn good phono stage, IMO.

 

[Mr. Lin]

I've used two different phono preamps within the past year. The first was a Pro-Ject Tube Box II, which I was very happy with, especially when I discovered the joys of tube rolling (thank you AK, now I'm broke).

Very recently I decided to upgrade and bought a Wright Sound Company 200C tube phono preamp. Wow!!! This thing cost quite a bit for my typical budget, but the results have been jaw-dropping. I have a fairly recent thread in this forum about it with pictures, but for some reason it generated almost no interest. Anyway, the overall sonic improvements were akin to getting a much nicer MC cartridge than the one I have, imo. Plus it uses 6 tubes so there's lots of room to play around there, but you haven't mentioned anything about that so I won't drag the thread too far off topic.

My point is that I've only used new phono preamps, but everything above $300 was very satisfying.

 

[markd51]

OK, here's what I'm wondering: Has anyone compared a new "budget" phono preamp to the phono stages of vintage preamps? Specifically, I'm considering the Jolida JD-9 phono stage (tubed) or the Musical Surroundings Phonomena (SS). Both are available used for about 300 bucks.

But there are many vintage enthusiasts here, especially Yamaha enthusiasts, and they've got me wondering: how does the phono stage of an older Yamaha preamp (C-80, C-85, CX-800, etc.) compare to the Jolida or the Phonomena?

By the way, I'm using an Audio Technica OC-9ml Mk II right now, so I'm most interested in the MC abilities of these phono stages.

Thanks!

Winegasman,
Both the jolida, and the Phonomena are great Stages.
I personally doubt you'll find many vintage Phono Stages to compare, particularly considering the use of modern MC Cartridges.

The Jolida will of course have that Tube sound, and some experimentation with Tube Rolling would probably be in order to extract the best from the Unit, and to find an ideal sound to your personal liking.

Of course you may hear Tube Rush as well. The better the tubes you install, the better the sound you'll extract. A word of advice, is that Tube Rolling can get expensive, and at times perhaps frustrating as well.

About the MS Phonomena. Solid State as you know, and it is said to be a tremendously fine Unit, especially for the money. With 128 Loading Settings, doubtful that there's a MC Cartridge on earth that the versatile Phonomena can't handle. They say it even gets better yet with the outboard DC Power Supply.

With such versatility, this leaves the door open for many future possibilities of whatever Cartridge you may choose down the road.

If you should unlikely like neither, I doubt you'd lose a cent re-selling, as both you mention are very popular fine sounding Units. Mark

 

[theophile]

I own a pretty fair sized collection of good quality vintage preamps,and currently use(and love) the Dynavector P-75(the original,not the newer improved P-75 Mk II).
My collection of phono capable preamps include

Kenwood Basic C2
Yamaha C2x
Onkyo P-303
Kenwood 700C
Echowars modified Kenwood 700C

Since my cartridge is the extremely low output moving coil Dynavector Karat Diamond 17D Mk II(again not the newer improved 17D Mk III),I can't really tell you about the phono stages of the Kenwood 700Cs since they aren't configured for low output cartridges(or the impedance matching necessary for most moving coils).
So that leaves any real assessment I've done of these preamps with their own phono stages,down to the Yamaha,the Kenwood Basic and the Onkyo.
Having the Kenwood 700C,on hand meant that I used to use the Yamaha C2x's phono stage(via the C2x's tape out sockets).
By taking the phono signal of the Yamaha C2x from the tape-out sockets,the signal didn't have to pass through(could bypass)the tone controls,the balance pot,the headphone socket and the volume control.
When using the Yamaha C2x's phono stage via it's 'normal' dedicated preamp outputs,the signal went through all the above,and sounded inferior to taking it's phono signal from the tape-outs.Of course,to have any use then of what one was getting from the C2x's phono stage,another preamp was necessary.
I'm certain that if the other preamp wasn't of the quality of the Kenwood 700Cs(EW and stock),it wouldn't have been worth it.
Of the low output moving coil capable preamps I've got(used from their 'normal' dedicated preamp outputs)the best I have here is the Onkyo P-303.
The Dynavector P-75 is a better match to my cartridge than any phono stage in all of my preamps(that's hardly surprising now isn't it).
It can't be said that it was designed for my cartridge as the cartridge's first original model was released in the late '70s(?),and the P-75 phono stage only came out in 2004(?).However there are design elements in the Dynavector cartridge range which make them capable of using the 'Phono Enhancer" mode of the P-75.
When I got hold of the Onkyo P-303,I posted a lengthy(boring) assessment of it's phono capability,which impressed me.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=105181&highlight=onkyo+p-303

Here's hoping you didn't feel the urge to commit Hara-Kiri after reading that. :tears:

 

[jcmjrt]

I'd be surprised if you could find anyone who's compared a vintage preamp with a new one. They seem to be two separate camps. So, given that, I'll just cast a vote for the Yamahas. I have a C-4 and C-60--my main reason for going for them was that they have two phono inputs, but I think they sound great.

If I were going for a new preamp I'd consider the Hagerman bugle. In fact, someday I may put together the kit and compare it to the Yamahas just for kicks.

Yep. The Yamahas are known for their phono amp sections. I used to use (still have it as I can't bring myself to part with it yet) a C-70 (MM & MC) for pre/phono amp. Still, if you can afford the $130 (assembled, if you can diy then it's cheaper!) go for the Hagerman Bugle. It's one of the best audio bargains around and easily compares to most phono amps 2+ times the cost. Why? Because the designer sells it mostly on word of mouth. You get the bargain because you aren't paying for a stereophile magazine ad.

 

[winegasman]

I appreciate the feedback and suggestions

Thank you for all your thoughts on the question.

I tried a Hagerman Bugle briefly, but left it on overnight two different times and came back the next day to dead batteries. So, although I liked its sound very much, I sold it because it added another concern that I didn't want to deal with.

I guess I'm trying to find out if anyone has directly compared a Yamaha C-series, or CX-series, preamp to one of the newer phono stages? And what the sonic differences were/are?

I'm willing to shell out 300 bucks if I get a sonic benefit. But the other night a C-80 sold on ebay for $123, and I got to thinking that if I could spend half the $300 and get, say, 95% of the sonic quality, that'd leave me quite a bit of cash for more LPs!

I guess another question would be, given my SS HT receiver (Yamaha RX-V2400) which would you recommend: Jolida JD-9 (tubed), MS Phonomena (SS), or older SS Yammie (cheap)? Thanks again,
Rich

 

[hammr7]

This whole debate gets muddied, at least as far as vintage gear goes, by the complication of step up transformers in older evaluations.

In the late 70's and early 80's, almost anyone who migrated to MC cartridges was confronted with the consensus expectation that a step up was needed before going to the preamp. Today this might be attributed to the audiophile disdain for many of the Japanese brands at the time.

But the truth was that there were many otherwise excellent preamps (and preamp stages) that didn't handle low-output cartridges, or handled them in a limited or poor manner. And even those units that supported MC cartridges did so as a compromise, with the rsult that some MCs sounded great and others sounded horrible when run through the same piece of electronics. This was often more a reflection of the match then a good (or bad) reflection on any of the individual components. Finally, there were a decent number of step up transformers available that allowed you to use the otherwise-limited components (preamps or receivers) that you might already own. With the proper step-up transformer you didn't need more than the standard phono input.

For low output cartridges there are many reasons why step up transformers can be preferable to "MC" preamps. An excellent article noting these can be found at:

http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/stepup/primer.html

Many of these step-ups are now so obscure that you can get them relatively cheap if you know what you are looking for. And this is important, because some times you don't know what you are looking for until after you already have it (or have had the opportunity to borrow it). The linked article describes the interactions between a low-output cartridge and the first stage amplification (head amp or step up transformer). Ultimately trial and error has a part in optimizing a system to your preferences. If each possible choice is expensive it means you are less likely to optimize.

For many years I lived with a small Denon step-up transformer. It worked well with the Coral MC I was using. It did not work well with my subsequent MC. More recently I was able to pick up a beautiful unit made by Verion for next to nothing, simply because no one knew what it was. The Verion has a great deal of flexibility in how it can be configured, which will allow me to play with many more cartridges.

 

[totem]

Thanks for the read.

 

[Mr. Lin]

I guess another question would be, given my SS HT receiver (Yamaha RX-V2400) which would you recommend: Jolida JD-9 (tubed), MS Phonomena (SS), or older SS Yammie (cheap)? Thanks again,
Rich

Both tube preamps I've used have been with a SS receiver, if that's what you're concerned about with the Jolida. I would really recommend going with tubes, I'm sure the sound will be great and like others have said you can play around with different ones until you find a sound you love. In my case I've found many tube combinations I love. What does that Jolida use, two 12AX7? That doesn't have to be too expensive to experiment with.

Dave

 

[hakaplan]

Thank you for all your thoughts on the question.

I tried a Hagerman Bugle briefly, but left it on overnight two different times and came back the next day to dead batteries. So, although I liked its sound very much, I sold it because it added another concern that I didn't want to deal with.

Too bad because Hagerman makes a plug-in power supply for it. If you liked it, its worth getting it again.