New Stylus for Empire 2000E or new AT VM95ML, Nagaoka MP-110, etc.?

[Young J Son]

Hi, I just purchased a Technics SL-1600 turntable with an Empire 2000E cartridge (not I, II, III) which unfortunately came with a broken cantilever. I am thinking about whether or not it's worth putting a new stylus on, or should I buy something modern like an Audio Technica VM95ML or a Nagaoka MP-110. First of all, can I replace the 2000E stylus with one made for the 2000E/III, etc.? Are the stylus interchangeable between all the 2000 series? Are all the Empire 2000 cartridges the same except for the stylus? If they are, would you recommend the LP Gear S2000VL/III ViVid Line stylus ($114), or JICO E002506 (made for the 2000E, $78), or JICO E002510 (made for the 2000E/III, $83), or a cheaper stylus; or the modern cartridges like the ones I mentioned above (or maybe even stretch budget to an AT VM540ML)? I'm trying to be price conscious. For sound, I like detail, transparent, neutral but maybe with a bit of sparkle or brightness. Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[wualta]

Though I am an Empire fangeezer, I'd go for the VM95ML as a relatively affordable way to get the ML diamond, something not found on any Empire, on a decent cartridge that's still in production. I suspect Audio-Technica's "house sound" will suit you.

If you want answers to your many questions about Empire cartridges and their somewhat overwrought history, let me suggest the following giant thread:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/anyone-else-running-vintage-empire-carts.468129/

 

[Ilikevinyl]

Yes, get the VM95ML. You don't need bolt nuts, so easy to mount! VM95 series an excellent value!

 

[The Slider]

What is your phono preamp? If you have too much capacitance in the cables and preamp input, the AT carts can get a bit more sparkle and brightness than you may like, especially the 500 series, they have flattest response with very low load capacitance. Just something to keep in mind, not a deal breaker.

If you have the 1600 Mk1 version, the tonearm is around 16g effective mass, so works best with medium compliance carts like the AT-VM95ML (less than 15cu), whereas the VM540ML will give you a pretty low resonance frequency since it is quite a bit higher compliance (around 25cu).

 

[Young J Son]

What is your phono preamp? If you have too much capacitance in the cables and preamp input, the AT carts can get a bit more sparkle and brightness than you may like, especially the 500 series, they have flattest response with very low load capacitance. Just something to keep in mind, not a deal breaker.

If you have the 1600 Mk1 version, the tonearm is around 16g effective mass, so works best with medium compliance carts like the AT-VM95ML (less than 15cu), whereas the VM540ML will give you a pretty low resonance frequency since it is quite a bit higher compliance (around 25cu).

Yes I have a 1600 Mk1. I'm assuming a low resonance frequency is bad because you may hear rumble?? Is that what you're saying?

For now, I am going to see how any of this sounds with the phono stage of my AV receiver, a Pioneer Elite VSX-56TXi (a decent $1200 receiver during its day) - I am assuming that it has inductance in the 100pf range, although I can't seem to find any information on that specifically. I would assume that the 1600 Mk1 has inductance in the 85pF range from RCA-to-cartridge?? Depending on how that goes, I may consider a Schiit Mani or a tube preamp (Bellari?) in the future?? I know, so many questions, but so many different options.

I think that you're saying the VM95ML would be a better match than the VM540ML??

 

[ghamilton]

I love my AT-VM95ML!

 

[Young J Son]

Though I am an Empire fangeezer, I'd go for the VM95ML as a relatively affordable way to get the ML diamond, something not found on any Empire, on a decent cartridge that's still in production. I suspect Audio-Technica's "house sound" will suit you.

If you want answers to your many questions about Empire cartridges and their somewhat overwrought history, let me suggest the following giant thread:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/anyone-else-running-vintage-empire-carts.468129/

Yes, I saw that thread. I have begun chipping my way through it. I'm assuming what you're saying is is that the ViVid Line stylus wouldn't be a substitute for the ML diamond. How is the rest of the cartridge? Is it compatible with the III stylus or other 2000 series styluses? Are the generators all the same? I may want to eventually get one even if I get the AT cartridge, just to have another cartridge with a different flavor.

 

[The Slider]

FYI, yes I have a 1600 Mk1. I'm assuming a low resonance frequency is bad because you may hear rumble?? Is that what you're saying?

A low resonance frequency gets you closer to the warp frequency, so tonearm won't be as well controlled and can produce large amounts of subsonic noise, resulting in woofer pumping and flabby bass. It's generally thought that best control results with resonance in the 7-14 Hz range (some limit it even more to 8-12Hz). The VM540ML will have a resonance around 7.5 Hz on a 12g tonearm, maybe 6.5 on yours, so will work OK but just something to be aware.

For now, I am going to see how any of this sounds with the phono stage of my AV receiver, a Pioneer Elite VSX-56TXi - I am assuming that it has inductance in the 100pf range, although I can't seem to find any information on that specifically. I would assume that the 1600 Mk1 has inductance in the 85pF range from RCA-to-cartridge??

I don't know what your capacitance is, often it isn't specified so all you can do is ask around, or sometimes look at the schematic, but some of them are very difficult to determine.

I think that you're saying the VM95ML would be a better match??

Probably, it would be a better match for the arm mass.

 

[Young J Son]

A low resonance frequency gets you closer to the warp frequency, so tonearm won't be as well controlled and can produce large amounts of subsonic noise, resulting in woofer pumping and flabby bass. It's generally thought that best control results with resonance in the 7-14 Hz range (some limit it even more to 8-12Hz). The VM540ML will have a resonance around 7.5 Hz on a 12g tonearm, maybe 6.5 on yours, so will work OK but just something to be aware.


I don't know what your capacitance is, often it isn't specified so all you can do is ask around, or sometimes look at the schematic, but some of them are very difficult to determine.


Probably, it would be a better match for the arm mass.

Thank you for your detailed explanations, that's very helpful! Now I'm going to look deeper into what you said to better understand

 

[wualta]

...I'm assuming what you're saying is is that the ViVid Line stylus wouldn't be a substitute for the ML diamond.

While I didn't mention the VividLine, the two diamond shapes aren't directly comparable; the ML is technically more advanced and more expensive.

Is [my 2000E body] compatible with the III stylus?

Yes. Perfect match.

...or other 2000 series styluses?

Are the generators all the same?

The 2000E family, which includes the conical 2000, shares a single generator.
But there are many other "2000something" models created by Empire which are not 2000E underneath. For example, the 2000S is a clone of the 2000T, physically incompatible with the 2000E family. The 2000X uses a leftover CD-4 body. There's even a 2000E/IV which doesn't share the 2000E-family generator-- it's a clone of an earlier Empire family. In sum, Empire marketing can be a minefield.

I may want to eventually get one...

I'm assuming you mean get a 2000E/III stylus. Demand is high, supply is nil. Difficulties naturally ensue unless you apply big cash. However... You can still get an original stylus for your 2000E, the conical, the S2000, the one we call Ol' Smokey over yonder in the big thread. It's "only" a conical, but it does sound very good. Nearly all of the Empire sound, and not so compliant that it'll give your woofers nightmares in that SL-1600 Mk I arm.

 

[Young J Son]

While I didn't mention the VividLine, the two diamond shapes aren't directly comparable; the ML is technically more advanced and more expensive.

Yes. Perfect match.


The 2000E family, which includes the conical 2000, shares a single generator.
But there are many other "2000something" models created by Empire which are not 2000E underneath. For example, the 2000S is a clone of the 2000T, physically incompatible with the 2000E family. The 2000X uses a leftover CD-4 body. There's even a 2000E/IV which doesn't share the 2000E-family generator-- it's a clone of an earlier Empire family. In sum, Empire marketing can be a minefield.

I'm assuming you mean get a 2000E/III stylus. Demand is high, supply is nil. Difficulties naturally ensue unless you apply big cash. However... You can still get an original stylus for your 2000E, the conical, the S2000, the one we call Ol' Smokey over yonder in the big thread. It's "only" a conical, but it does sound very good. Nearly all of the Empire sound, and not so compliant that it'll give your woofers nightmares in that SL-1600 Mk I arm.

Yes, I've been reading some more about Empire 2000E stylus options. Thanks for the info about the generator, that is very helpful. Looks like I won't be chasing after a unicorn original, but it does sound like some people are getting decent results with some of the aftermarket styluses, starting at about $40 for an EVG Japan .3 x .7 elliptical or stretch to a JICO or ViVid Line. It looks like I'll get a modern cartridge (leaning now towards the VM95ML), but also maybe one of the aftermarket styluses for a change-of-pace / backup. Or maybe I'll try the Empire conical, since it's so inexpensive.