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New TT with Grace 707mkII - A few questions

M

mltl

Member
Hi everyone,
I've finally managed to acquire a new to me kenwood kd-500 with a grace 707 mkII installed. I have not installed my adc xlm mkII cartridge yet but plan to this weekend. I've noticed a couple of odd things about the tonearm since getting the table home and looking at the grace 707 user manuals available on VE.

I noticed that there should be a rubber gasket/washer directly above the tonearm board and one directly below. Theres a plastic base plate on the bottom side of the tonearm board directly above the mounting bolt, which I see in the manual. I can't tell if theres a rubber gasket between this plastic base plate and the tonearm board but I don't think there is, unless its really thin. I assume these were provided for damping the arm, but will it be a big deal if they're not used? I'm sure I could find some sort of replacement, but I'd rather not disassemble the arm from the tonearm board if its not critical.

My next observation is that the outward most rod and weight (the gold one) on the antiskate mechanism are not original. The post has no markings that would be associated with the different antiskate weight settings. The sliding weight is gold, and I believe the original was matte silver. This is based on viewing many photos of the various editions of these tonearms on the internet. If anyone recognizes the original equipment that these replacement components may have come from, I'd be interested to know. If someone has a grace 707mkii arm and would be willing to unscrew that post and sliding weight to weight it and give me a mass of the original, that would be really helpful.

I'd also like to know if the counterweight assembly looks right and if the headshell is wired as it should be.

Looking forward to your responses!
Thanks,
Max
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I think you are fine without the rubber washers. As Blue Shadow says, the plastic of the arm board top should have the same damping effect (as probably does the luan plywood the board is made from) - I suspect the rubber was really to keep the arm from sliding around. Many people removed the washers, wanting a tight connection between the arm and the table.
 
First, I have to say you've scored a fine table/arm combination, now you just need a schveet Grace cartridge to mount on it, you'll be glad you did.

The F-8 line aren't as expensive as the later F-9 etc but prices are escalating fast as the secret on just how great these are is now out.

Running the Grace F-8L 10' Advanced Liminal Trace 10th Anniversary edition cartridge on the KD500
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Running the Grace F-8C Custom on the Well Tempered Lab Turntable, ya the cartridge is that great
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Ok, so that's out of the way, I have to mention my arm is the earlier first edition so almost the same but different lol.

The anti-skate mech does have notches indicating different settings but not important really, I actually run mine all the way up against the collar, I've even removed the weight but prefer it with just a bit of back pressure applied.

I've included pics of the counterweight assembly and scale weighing the antiskate weight, hope this helps.

Also, take care installing your cartridge, those cartridge leads break off very easily, don't ask how I know lol.

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that's 2.62g in case the decimal point isn't readily visible
 
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Thanks all for you responses. I'm going to stick with the mounting as it is for now as recommended by blue shadow. Also thanks to grenadeslio for the weight check.
The cartridge I plan to ultimately install is an ADC XLM mkII with a diasa stylus. I'm thinking about mounting an AT95e that I also have, to compare to the Philips 212 I'm upgrading from. The philips has the xlm currently, so it wouldn't be a fair match, but I'm just curious how they will compare, since my only reference point with my system is the philips + adc combo. The only unfortunate thing with this new setup is the relative difficulty in installing a new cartridge with the grace fixed headshell...
 
It might be worth unlocking the arm pillar (not the whole mount) and lifting the arm out so it is easier to mount the carridge. The plastic headshell isn't that robust - plastics age and become more brittle - and if you accidentally crank too hard on it, it might crack, which would be a sad thing to happen.
As apparently built to a price point as the Philips is, it was very well designed and engineered, and can sound quite good, so, while I would expect a gratifying improvement, it may not be night and day.
 
Nat said:
It might be worth unlocking the arm pillar (not the whole mount) and lifting the arm out so it is easier to mount the carridge. The plastic headshell isn't that robust - plastics age and become more brittle - and if you accidentally crank too hard on it, it might crack, which would be a sad thing to happen.
As apparently built to a price point as the Philips is, it was very well designed and engineered, and can sound quite good, so, while I would expect a gratifying improvement, it may not be night and day.
Click to expand...

it's definitely easier with the arm removed to change the cartridge.
 
mltl said:
Thanks all for you responses. I'm going to stick with the mounting as it is for now as recommended by blue shadow. Also thanks to grenadeslio for the weight check.
The cartridge I plan to ultimately install is an ADC XLM mkII with a diasa stylus. I'm thinking about mounting an AT95e that I also have, to compare to the Philips 212 I'm upgrading from. The philips has the xlm currently, so it wouldn't be a fair match, but I'm just curious how they will compare, since my only reference point with my system is the philips + adc combo. The only unfortunate thing with this new setup is the relative difficulty in installing a new cartridge with the grace fixed headshell...
Click to expand...

The AT will not be a good match for the Grace arm, a Grado would be a much better match, the Platinum wood body is stellar on the 707, your ADC should also work well.

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Without disagreeing with the comments above, which seem to be based on mass/compliance considerations, I will point out that Grace made the arm as a low mass arm, but it also was touted highly in the early Linn era with moving coil cartridges, and not your relatively high compliance modern items. I believe these recommendations were the result of the tightness of Grace bearings compared to those of other companies, and when Breur came out with an arm that had even tighter toleranced bearings, it displaced the Grace (even though I don't think the masses were that different).
If the comments were based on actual experience, they would be more reliable guidance - which combinations work, and which don't, is pretty unpredictable.
 
had the AT here, two to be exact and its not a good match for the Grace, from experience eh. They were to be mounted to S shaped arms on tables I put together for others and in those setups they were what the cartridge is, a reliable entry level starter .

You're ADC was designed for light arms so on paper should work, I'm thinking a Grace better but you already have the ADC so..........
 
I started changing out cartridges, and due to the fragility of the wires, I gave up on the AT and decided to put the xlm on there for good. I'm having a hell of a time using an arc protractor right now. First tried the baerwald arc for 222m mounting distance and then the stevenson currently. It seems impossible to get a position that follows the arc for either of these. All my scaling appears correct. With the philips I just used the alignment jig so this is proving more difficult than expected.
 
Nat said:
It might be worth unlocking the arm pillar (not the whole mount) and lifting the arm out so it is easier to mount the carridge. The plastic headshell isn't that robust - plastics age and become more brittle - and if you accidentally crank too hard on it, it might crack, which would be a sad thing to happen.
As apparently built to a price point as the Philips is, it was very well designed and engineered, and can sound quite good, so, while I would expect a gratifying improvement, it may not be night and day.
Click to expand...
I removed the arm to mount the adc and that was the way to go for sure, thanks. Also, while audible memory is always suspect, I feel I can identify a few differences between the philips 212 and kenwood w/ the grace arm so far. Bass is a bit more defined and treble is a bit more detailed. Complicated sections of music are more defined. There may be some qualities that I can't exactly point out about the philips sound that I like more, but I'm very used to that (past 12 years). I'll end up sticking with this kenwood, as it seems better all around. I really like the adjustable vta without shimming. I think that maybe be part of what has improved over the philips. There is also noticeably less record surface noise, which I wasn't expecting exactly. Its really hard to compare turntables when you're not going back and forth with the same cartridge, so take most of this with a grain of salt.
I'm still not sure that I couldn't align the cartridge better than I have it but basically, I resorted to squaring it in the headshell as far forward as it would go, and it got pretty close to perfect with my baerwald simple protractor. If anyone has used or is still using an adc xlm variant with a grace 707 and has zeroed in alignment, I would be very interested in hearing your experience.
Thanks,
Max
 
Grenadeslio said:
First, I have to say you've scored a fine table/arm combination, now you just need a schveet Grace cartridge to mount on it, you'll be glad you did.

The F-8 line aren't as expensive as the later F-9 etc but prices are escalating fast as the secret on just how great these are is now out.

Running the Grace F-8L 10' Advanced Liminal Trace 10th Anniversary edition cartridge on the KD500
View attachment 2146104
View attachment 2146107

View attachment 2146119



Running the Grace F-8C Custom on the Well Tempered Lab Turntable, ya the cartridge is that great
View attachment 2146112

View attachment 2146115

View attachment 2146120


Ok, so that's out of the way, I have to mention my arm is the earlier first edition so almost the same but different lol.

The anti-skate mech does have notches indicating different settings but not important really, I actually run mine all the way up against the collar, I've even removed the weight but prefer it with just a bit of back pressure applied.

I've included pics of the counterweight assembly and scale weighing the antiskate weight, hope this helps.

Also, take care installing your cartridge, those cartridge leads break off very easily, don't ask how I know lol.

View attachment 2146098

View attachment 2146099

that's 2.62g in case the decimal point isn't readily visible
Click to expand...
I measured the antiskate weight and it was 2.59 grams, so effectively the same as the original! Thanks for your help
 
So I just got a 45 adapter with overhang lines. The ADC XLM mkII all the way forward in the headshell is just past the 14mm mark, so my alignment is definitely not perfect at the specified 15mm overhang. Given baerwald overhang is even higher than this, its definitely way out of the question with this cart on the grace 707. I believe stevenson is 15mm overhang, which is still not possible, but at least its fairly close.. This experience tells me that proper "intended" alignment/overhang on the 707 with and adc xlm cart is not possible. This seems crazy to me as many have recommended this cartridge for use with this arm, and I imagine it was done thousands of times back in the late 70's when this was a likely combination. That said, I haven't heard anything in my limited use the past two days that says its waay off, but I imagine it should sound even better if I were to achieve the "proper" alignment. A few hints of sibilance on some recordings but nothing to scoff at.

All that said, am I missing something here? I'm no expert when it comes to cartridge alignment.
Thanks
 
mltl said:
So I just got a 45 adapter with overhang lines. The ADC XLM mkII all the way forward in the headshell is just past the 14mm mark, so my alignment is definitely not perfect at the specified 15mm overhang. Given baerwald overhang is even higher than this, its definitely way out of the question with this cart on the grace 707. I believe stevenson is 15mm overhang, which is still not possible, but at least its fairly close.. This experience tells me that proper "intended" alignment/overhang on the 707 with and adc xlm cart is not possible. This seems crazy to me as many have recommended this cartridge for use with this arm, and I imagine it was done thousands of times back in the late 70's when this was a likely combination. That said, I haven't heard anything in my limited use the past two days that says its waay off, but I imagine it should sound even better if I were to achieve the "proper" alignment. A few hints of sibilance on some recordings but nothing to scoff at.

All that said, am I missing something here? I'm no expert when it comes to cartridge alignment.
Thanks
Click to expand...

I found this album unlistenable the sibilance was so bad with either of my Pickering XV15 cartridge/stylus combinations though they should have been a match and I thought most likely were back in the day.

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If you have this give it a spin, see if there are any issues.

It sounds awesome with the same cartridges on my Thorens:dunno:
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And with the Grados or Grace.
 
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Your problems with aligning the Grace raises the question: Is the arm located at the right pivot to spindle distance? If it was just mounted in the standard arm board, it might not be the correct distance, since the board was designed for the Kenwood arm that came on the 550.
 
Nat said:
Your problems with aligning the Grace raises the question: Is the arm located at the right pivot to spindle distance? If it was just mounted in the standard arm board, it might not be the correct distance, since the board was designed for the Kenwood arm that came on the 550.
Click to expand...
I did measure the spindle to pivot distance and it was 222mm.
 
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