Norah Jones sibilance distortion on Blue Note reissue of "Come away with me"

[ripblade]

I have an original 1st press of the Norah Jones. It's been a long while since I listened to it, but I don't recall any sibilance issues with it. I have other re-issues with severe problems relating to sibilance. I think many of these are mastered for DVD-A and have extreme UHF levels that a stylus simply can't track. I have proof that some of the BN75 re-issues suffer from this.

 

[PiotrekN]

I have the Classic Records 45 RPM box set of that album and consider it to be one of my "Reference Records".

I would expect the 45 rpm version to sound much better (or at least different), this 2015 Blue Note reissue is 33.3 rpm.

I have other re-issues with severe problems relating to sibilance. I think many of these are mastered for DVD-A and have extreme UHF levels that a stylus simply can't track.

If this is the case then this would explain it, but I somehow can't believe a label like Blue Note would put a DVD-A master directly on vinyl. Could this really happen?

 

[olddude55]

A micro-ridge or micro-line stylus can usually play these types of records without sibilance. An AT440MLa fer instance.

 

[vinyl1]

You've all apparently discovered that Come Away With Me is the ultimate test album. That one drove me to distraction, with both Norah and the piano from hell ringing and distorting and driving me to distraction. A few rounds of room treatments, digital eq, several sets of driver tubes for the amps, and a good bit of cursing finally brought all that under control. From there, most everything else is easy ...

I don't know if it is wise to tune your system to play one iffy album. What if everything else sounds worse?

 

[Grbluen]

I'm just throwing this out there, but I've found that some of these reissues need a really good cleaning. I've had a couple that sounded like they had a non- fill issue that improved with cleaning.

 

[ripblade]

If this is the case then this would explain it, but I somehow can't believe a label like Blue Note would put a DVD-A master directly on vinyl. Could this really happen?

Judge for yourself. Here's the spectrogram from Blue Train, one of the first re-issues:

See the MASSIVE bump centering on 15-20kHz? That shouldn't be there, and isn't on normal records. I don't have the original to compare unfortunately, but I can tell you the cymbals on this one sound more like tearing paper than metal shimmer. The boost is well above the normal audible range for an adult, but does contribute to a sense of 'air' around the instrument. Or rather, it would on the DVD-A. On vinyl, the needle distorts because it cannot possibly keep up with the dynamic accelerations needed to trace this properly. The result sounds like garbage.

We're all familiar with the CD master being used for vinyl with the unfortunate consequences...lack of air and presence attributed to brick wall filtering. If the pressing touts a 'hi-rez' copy of the original master, what are the odds the 'hi-rez' master was intended for download or hir -rez medium like DVD-A instead of vinyl. I don't imagine it's a coincidence.

 

[PiotrekN]

Judge for yourself. Here's the spectrogram from Blue Train, one of the first re-issues:View attachment 1276252

See the MASSIVE bump centering on 15-20kHz? That shouldn't be there, and isn't on normal records. I don't have the original to compare unfortunately, but I can tell you the cymbals on this one sound more like tearing paper than metal shimmer. The boost is well above the normal audible range for an adult, but does contribute to a sense of 'air' around the instrument. Or rather, it would on the DVD-A. On vinyl, the needle distorts because it cannot possibly keep up with the dynamic accelerations needed to trace this properly. The result sounds like garbage.

We're all familiar with the CD master being used for vinyl with the unfortunate consequences...lack of air and presence attributed to brick wall filtering. If the pressing touts a 'hi-rez' copy of the original master, what are the odds the 'hi-rez' master was intended for download or hir -rez medium like DVD-A instead of vinyl. I don't imagine it's a coincidence.

Wow. I know some/many of these reissues are from digital masters, but I would think that a reputable label would have a separate digital master for vinyl, not just use the version for DVD. I have a Blue Note reissue of Blue Train from 2014 and never had any problems with it.
However, the DVD-A master could explain the sound I'm getting on the Norah Jones. I once happened to buy DSOTM LP that turned out to be one of those fake reissues and it had very similar distortion and most certainly it was simply sourced from a CD.

 

[twiiii]

Try the British trick go floating the record. Get some distilled water and a small rubber or plates squeee bottle and cover about 40 % of the LP evenly over the entire surface. Raise your tracking pressure to the highest recommended setting and go for it. If you have a dishwasher or access to a VPI or Nitty Gritty record cleaners use them first. Then float. Then carefully lift the record when finished dump the water in the sink and dry with a the record cleaner and repeat for the other side. Have you got a recorded to dub the result. You don't want to do this every time you listen to the record. If it doesn't work toss the LP all the world needs is another defective disc. Take it to a friends house and see if plays on his system. Where's a V-15 V MR when you need one?

 

[AudioJag]

I have the Blue Note QRP release.... it's one of my favorite albums and one of my major test records.... no sibilants from that copy on my systems.

 

[ripblade]

I have a Blue Note reissue of Blue Train from 2014 and never had any problems with it.

That's the 75th anniversary issue....the one I have, with the FR posted above, pressed in the US. I gather yours was pressed in the EU? I've read elsewhere that these are better, and not just the pressing itself.

The FR was done with a microridge stylus BTW. Maybe a big old fat spherical will gloss over the HF garbage.

 

[sKiZo]

I don't know if it is wise to tune your system to play one iffy album. What if everything else sounds worse?

Not saying I tuned the system to the album, just that this particular album does a nice job of pointing out certain inconsistencies in the room that would be an issue with everything else as well. With most material, I could ignore it, but listening to Norah's piano and voice push the envelope pointed out a couple reflection hot spots and echoes here and there that could benefit from a tweak or two, and gave me the incentive to just do it.

Another good "test" record is Porcupine Tree's Lightbulb Sun. That's got some ridonkulous pure sine that would crack plaster until I tweaked out a major standing wave at around 160hz. Overall bass is a LOT cleaner down there now no matter the source.

 

[PiotrekN]

Just checked the prices on that 45 rpm Norah Jones box set - 300EUR on discogs, 700USD on amazon... I might have to live with the sibilance a while longer...

 

[Audiofreak71]

Just checked the prices on that 45 rpm Norah Jones box set - 300EUR on discogs, 700USD on amazon... I might have to live with the sibilance a while longer...

Yep there pricey and if you can find a copy of the QRP pressing for less than $200 I’d snatch it up if I were you , the prices have skyrocketed, I was lucky enough to buy my copy when they first came out for $35 .

Audiofreak71

 

[4-2-7]

for instance Eva Cassidy's "Songbird" is distortion and sibilance free on my setup, although her last track on side B, "Over the rainbow", is quite demanding.

I have the DCC copy of this, and on side two, I think it was the first 2-3 songs when I flipped the record it sounded bad, all distorted. This album is made up of different recordings, some are live as well, I think it was a case they did the best they can in mastering the differences. It was also one of the first times I found out that adjusting the loading helped in playback on some records.

"Feelin' the same way"

Do you have an adjustable phono stage?

Nope. But how would it help with this issue?

It would have adjustable gain and resistance loading. I’ll get a record every once in awhile that’s mastered a bit hot and changing the loading will clear it up. Your stage, cart and record are just not playing well with each other.

Ok I listened to the CD, the Analogue Production/Blue Note, and the 2012 Blue Note.

For this song only, "Feelin' the same way"

The CD doesn't have distortion, but she sings with a bit of sibilance anyway on a digital copy of this song.

The AP record sounds awesome, no complaints the way my system is setup.

The Blue Note has distortion and it makes the sibilance worse. However I switch my phono stage loading from 100ohms to 30ohms, volume was raised at the preamp. The song sounded awesome, all distortion was gone.

As I said above, we sometimes have to adjust our equipment gain and loading instead of pointing at the manufacturers. Not every phono stage is the same, nor are carts, preamps or records.

 

[4-2-7]

If this is the case then this would explain it, but I somehow can't believe a label like Blue Note would put a DVD-A master directly on vinyl. Could this really happen?

No,
I think a lot of people say things online that they read online making a perpetual myth.

You might buy some import from a third world country and they actually took a CD to use as a master and EQed a IRAA curve for a unofficial record (Bootleg). But this is not anything remotely true for the legit industry.

Now a lot of the industry might use a hi rez file they get from the label to master from. These where what the labels did long ago as they started to find the tape are not going to last forever. Not to mention the value of some tapes and they don't want to let them out of the vault. They will not ship them over sees. Now with Norah masters they where all recorded digitally in the first place so any master will be a hi rez file.

This is talking about the Jazz series BN but isten to them and what has to be done sometimes.

 

[restorer-john]

Now with Norah masters they where all recorded digitally in the first place so any master will be a hi rez file.

Interesting you say this, because the Come Away with Me album both on CD and the SACD had some real issues with distortion and Stereophile investigated the SACD version to find that the original masters were 24 track 2" analog mixed down to 1/2" analog two track:

https://www.stereophile.com/thefifthelement/1104fifth/

"I then made several low-key and nonconfrontational inquiries. Travis McGee or Sam Spade would have been proud. Nick Charles, though, likely would have sneered. The facts, as related both to me and to John Atkinson, from multiple sources, were disappointing, exasperating, and even a bit maddening.

I was told that the Come Away With Me sessions were all analog, with 24 tracks laid down on 2" analog tape, and mixed down to ½" analog two-track. But for reasons—or total lack of reason—no one volunteered to explain to me, when it came time to create the high-resolution data file for the SACD's two-channel layer, someone ran the 16-bit/44.1kHz "Red Book" CD data through a DSD format converter, instead of going back to the two-channel analog tape and making a fresh DSD transfer. The differences, of course, being that the analog original had had its high frequencies above 22kHz knocked off by an anti-aliasing filter in the "Red Book" transfer, as well as having its resolution limited to a maximum of 16 bits.

To say I was aghast would be an understatement. In terms of the economic feasibility of doing things properly, we aren't talking about one of my own quixotic chamber-music recordings here, we're talking about an album that was recorded on a comparative shoestring, and which has already sold about eight million copies worldwide (footnote 2). It's not as though another five thousand bucks—maximum—to make a fresh DSD transfer from the original analog two-channel mix tape would have broken the bank. I'd bet you $5 that Blue Note has spent far more in a single month advertising this SACD in the audio and lifestyle magazines than it would have cost to make a new transfer to DSD direct from the analog tape. With friends like this, SACD doesn't need enemies"

And this:

https://www.stereophile.com/news/110104aeshirez/

"...reviewers who swore he couldn't hear a difference between the CD and SACD versions of Norah Jones's "Cold Cold Heart," using very good dedicated players and excellent ancillary gear. A waveform analysis showed why: They were identical except for the usual SACD noise added to the top end. Further exploration uncovered the fact that the SACD had been made from the 16-bit/44.1kHz-sampled PCM master rather than from the original analog tape..."

The music and the album are great, but it certainly isn't a great recording to demonstrate HiFi gear. The amount of distortion on several tracks is unfortunate. The fact that it won a Grammy for 'best engineered album' was interesting to say the least, but it seems Sorcerer sound (studio) has pulled the proverbial plug and closed down, sold off the gear and Al Fierstein has moved onto the lucrative business of noise complaints!

 

[4-2-7]

Interesting you say this, because the Come Away with Me album both on CD and the SACD had some real issues with distortion and Stereophile investigated the SACD version to find that the original masters were 24 track 2" analog mixed down to 1/2" analog two track:

https://www.stereophile.com/thefifthelement/1104fifth/

"I then made several low-key and nonconfrontational inquiries. Travis McGee or Sam Spade would have been proud. Nick Charles, though, likely would have sneered. The facts, as related both to me and to John Atkinson, from multiple sources, were disappointing, exasperating, and even a bit maddening.

I was told that the Come Away With Me sessions were all analog, with 24 tracks laid down on 2" analog tape, and mixed down to ½" analog two-track. But for reasons—or total lack of reason—no one volunteered to explain to me, when it came time to create the high-resolution data file for the SACD's two-channel layer, someone ran the 16-bit/44.1kHz "Red Book" CD data through a DSD format converter, instead of going back to the two-channel analog tape and making a fresh DSD transfer. The differences, of course, being that the analog original had had its high frequencies above 22kHz knocked off by an anti-aliasing filter in the "Red Book" transfer, as well as having its resolution limited to a maximum of 16 bits.

To say I was aghast would be an understatement. In terms of the economic feasibility of doing things properly, we aren't talking about one of my own quixotic chamber-music recordings here, we're talking about an album that was recorded on a comparative shoestring, and which has already sold about eight million copies worldwide (footnote 2). It's not as though another five thousand bucks—maximum—to make a fresh DSD transfer from the original analog two-channel mix tape would have broken the bank. I'd bet you $5 that Blue Note has spent far more in a single month advertising this SACD in the audio and lifestyle magazines than it would have cost to make a new transfer to DSD direct from the analog tape. With friends like this, SACD doesn't need enemies"

And this:

https://www.stereophile.com/news/110104aeshirez/

"...reviewers who swore he couldn't hear a difference between the CD and SACD versions of Norah Jones's "Cold Cold Heart," using very good dedicated players and excellent ancillary gear. A waveform analysis showed why: They were identical except for the usual SACD noise added to the top end. Further exploration uncovered the fact that the SACD had been made from the 16-bit/44.1kHz-sampled PCM master rather than from the original analog tape..."

The music and the album are great, but it certainly isn't a great recording to demonstrate HiFi gear. The amount of distortion on several tracks is unfortunate. The fact that it won a Grammy for 'best engineered album' was interesting to say the least, but it seems Sorcerer sound (studio) has pulled the proverbial plug and closed down, sold off the gear and Al Fierstein has moved onto the lucrative business of noise complaints!

That's interesting, she was ahead of her time and went backwards to tape. At least for this album.

 

[restorer-john]

That's interesting, she was ahead of her time and went backwards to tape. At least for this album.

I thought that too. I couldn't find a definitive statement by the engineer himself, but it looks like it was analog based as he stated he preferred to use analog where he could. I might email him just for fun and see what he says.

 

[ripblade]

I think a lot of people say things online that they read online making a perpetual myth.

It's not something I read online, but some speculation of mine based on the evidence before my eyes.

Can you explain the 10+dB boost in the 15-20kHz region? It's not the playback system, I can tell you that.

I have another record with the same problem...Jeff Beck - Live At Ronnie Scott's. From what I've read online, the 5.1 surround version sounds amazing. The vinyl record sounds like garbage.

 

[4-2-7]

I have another record with the same problem...Jeff Beck - Live At Ronnie Scott's. From what I've read online, the 5.1 surround version sounds amazing. The vinyl record sounds like garbage.

I have the DVD, the 1st record issue (single disc) and the second record issue for RSD (two disc) and the whole thing used to be on Youtube until Eagle blocked everything prior to the RSD issue coming out. They all sound good in my playback system, I have no complaints but don't believe me as you read it online and it differs from a complaint you read online.

Some vid clips can be found hidden under other names.

It's not something I read online, but some speculation of mine based on the evidence before my eyes.

Can you explain the 10+dB boost in the 15-20kHz region? It's not the playback system, I can tell you that.

No, but you say your speculating and others are reading what you'v posted online. I didn't read all your post but know they where drifting off from the title in the OP as this comment is to me. Your digital sample is recording what your system is giving it and doing to it.

The facts are we can distort any record in our playback system if we want. Not all cartridges, phono stages, and preamps have the same gain, loading, compliance, S/N, Diamond Profile. It's like a combination lock and while it might open most doors it will not open all. Not all records are the same either, some are mastered hot, some very flat. Even if the mastering was the same we have to contend with pressing quality as well.

I find a lot of complaints with records online have to do with what's being used to actually play the records. That's why my first post to the OP from my phone at work was to get him to state his system in use. Our systems are important to playback, just as important as the records.

If
Not all cartridges, phono stages, and preamps have the same gain, loading, compliance, S/N, Diamond Profile. It's like a combination lock and while it might open most doors it will not open all. Not all records are the same either, some are mastered hot, some very flat. Even if the mastering was the same we have to contend with pressing quality as well.

But if our playback system is staying the same without any adjustability, it might point out a hard record to play, a different mastering. However it doesn't mean the records bad, it does show a lack of adaptability to play all records.

I run my staging really hot, with a lot of gain and it's louder than any of my other inputs. I started leaning not all records can handle it and I can change it for those records.

Like I said I started to learn this with records like Songbird, the DCC copy that Steve Hoffman did. It's made up of some of the only recordings Eva had, different studios, and live recordings. When I first listen to the record, side 1 put me in a dream world, as soon as I flipped the record I think it was the first two songs sounded very distorted. I was like WTF happened to my system. But I started playing with Loading and Gain and made those songs sound good.

Another time someone posted that the 180g reissue In The Court of The King Crimson sounded very bad. And proceeded with the normal rant, made form a CD, They cant master records right anymore, and on and on. I said I have that copy, as well as about 5 old issues and that I'll check it out on my system. The new issue distorted, I played some old Atlantic SD issues and they where distorted. I started posting that it is the studio recording, but that was before I got to my last old copy. This one was a old Collectors Edition from EG Records. This one sounded wonderful so it can't be the actual studio recoding. I then put the 180g issue back on and changed my loading and gain, it sounded fine as did all the other old Atlantic SD issues.

So it's not really the record or mastering, it's what our indavidual system playback does with it.