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Observations on parts implementing circuits

onanysunday

chasing realism
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What's interesting I've found doing lots of audio tweaking over the years and many listening experiments with regards to material and part selection comparisons and its effect on sound, is that all possibilities are not really created equal in all ways. Keep in mind, these are just my thoughts on what I've noticed over the years and may be subject to change. Sometimes new information comes in that changes my understanding or associations, but for the most part, I've noticed consistencies that have become relatively reliable to the point of predicting how something will turn out sounding (specifically regarding the effect of changing caps, resistors or wiring IF the effect will be audible within the circuit).

It's easy to think everything is the same in a functional sense, and while this is true as most good options will "work" as long as they meet the basic criteria and requirements of the circuit using the same general specs as originally supplied components, the actual sound you get from using different component material can vary. There's a performance hierarchy of materials you can use to implement a circuit. In addition to the dielectric characteristics of film insulators (dielectric constant, dielectric loss, dielectric absorption and even dissipation factor) effecting the audio signal in cables and capacitors with regards to smearing/ blending/ leeching and loss of the musical signal with less delineated lows, mids, and highs; the same general effect occurs with metals in conductors as it relates to their conductivity ratings in the sense that metals/ alloys with a lower IACS (conductivity) rating will present the same irregularities in signal response from input to output; i.e. less musical separation compared to the best, most conductive metals available -such as silver. Copper-clad aluminum wire vs. silver wire for instance (around 66% IACS for the CCA compared to about 107% IACS for the silver).

Yes, the myriad of available material options will transit the same signal, but to varying degrees of interaction with the original signal and subsequent performance of sound that is heard through them.

Also, impure or low-grade metals and cheap alloys as conductors are much more likely to present as bright or sibilant which I believe to be a result of distortion. Sometimes, this edgy sound may come across as exciting or "revealing" at first but you may have to turn the volume down to continue listening to them over extended periods as they cause listening fatigue.

The best materials don't aim to "add" anything to the signal, they simply prevent loss and minimize interaction with it as much as possible. Some products are better at it than others from an electrical performance perspective -while others aren't and try to use deceptive marketing and inflated prices to re-package cheaper, under performing materials as "new" or "better" which leads many unscrupulous listeners to doubt that anything even matters or could make any difference or that everything claiming to be any different than anything else must always be "snake oil" just trying take more of your hard-earned money. This is why it's always good to focus on base materials used instead of name brands, marketing claims and inflated prices, while understanding there's a definite hierarchy of material performance and characteristics that every part or component may be subject to when it's effect may be audible within a circuit.

Some examples of this may include the following:

Polyester (mylar) caps have a lower performance threshold compared to polypropylene or teflon, but may also be preferred because they may tend to present as more "natural", "vintage", or have have better "tone" or fuller midrange according to some. When listening to music, not everyone is looking to get every last detail out of the recording from a technical perspective and it doesn't mean they're wrong or that only one size fits all, i.e. only the best materials should be used for all people and equipment at all times. This is why music and listening can be subjective. Some people want to take it as high as they can go from a technical or performance sense (like me), while others simply want to enjoy the experience and are content to not think about it or worry about it as much and want it to feel good or sound "right" as determined by how it has sounded to them in the past and how they are use to hearing it since they're familiar with what it's supposed to sound like which (again) is based off past experience with familiar tracks for instance.

Another example is that metal film resistors are more precise and accurate, some would say cold, clinical or sterile (modern as opposed to vintage); but only when compared to carbon film, or especially the older carbon composition types which may become so warm with time as they drift out of spec as to become thick and syrupy sounding.

Silver will bring out the most detail and sense of space, speed, and lightness to the sound with the highest performance ceiling to convey small details and a larger soundfield with the best musical separation and delineation of lows, mids, and highs with special emphasis on HF extension that wasn't heard or experienced before using lesser material.

Gold, copper or oil in cables or capacitors will sometimes present a richer, more natural midrange dominant type of sound with less HF extension than silver with none of the edgy hash or excitement (distortion) masquerading as detail that is often heard with some of the lesser conducting metals and alloys.

It is amazing to me how sound works in the sense that it's very easy to get used to what we have as sounding perfectly fine and normal -there's nothing wrong with it. It generally remains this way (ignorance is bliss) until we hear something else. It is only then do any differences begin to emerge that we may notice. It is only at that point can we begin to see (and hear) the possibility of how different equipment or components can actually sound different. Up 'til then, it's just a hypothetical that is subject to our innate skepticism. This is why if you're happy with what you have, it's best to just leave it alone because the more you dig, the more you'll realize what is possible that you were missing before.

Whether we like it or not, we effect the frequency response of our equipment simply due to the fact we combine different pieces of equipment together using different cables which all have an inherent sound and limitation to them, the end result of which is that every equipment combo we put together has a frequency response shaped by everything that went into to creating a final sound and is somewhat unique. For instance, we may say we prefer a linear sound with all tone controls bypassed, but the equipment we've put together in the listening space and speaker positioning it is presented in creates a unique sound with it's own frequency response that will not be perfectly linear or flat and would be slightly different than the next person using the same equipment in their own space with their own cables (for instance). If nothing else, we are the EQ -whether we use an actual equalizer and choose to acknowledge that, or not.

Since we're the EQ, the next step after recognizing that is to use it to our advantage through part selection as it relates to voicing equipment if we find the equipment lacking, or almost perfect, with something that is "off" with the sound that we wish could be slightly different or better. Original parts have a sound to them whether we realize it or not. Additionally, the way something sounded forty years ago when it was new is no longer the way it sounds now because parts have degraded or drifted with time, while we mistakenly assume it still has an "all-original" sound we don't want to mess with.

Sometimes, all possible materials that could be used were considered by the engineers who created the product. Sometimes you will hear things like "don't mess with that, the engineers knew what they were doing". While this is true, you also have to take into consideration the age of equipment and whether some of these newer, better performing materials were even available at the time. In many cases, they weren't. In other instances, the equipment was built to a price point and even if the engineer knew something sounded better, they weren't always able to use the best materials at all times so it was somewhat of a compromise from the very beginning. Not because they wanted to create something average sounding, but because they were working within the budget of a larger framework or business model that had limitations on production cost. They did the best with what they had available to them at the time, but it doesn't always mean it was the best it could've been. In most cases, it isn't.

The way you prove this or make it better is to replace average sounding (old) materials and components with newer, better performing ones and compare them in real-time by doing L/R stereo listening comparisons. I do this by starting with something perfectly functional while looking for circuit symmetry and keeping one side original while slowly replacing other specific parts on the experimental channel with the same values and ratings as the originals and observe the results. Sometimes you will hear no difference as not all parts are audible within a circuit. Other times, you will. Doing this over and over you begin to form associations and an understanding of how materials (can) effect sound.
 
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The reason I mention any of it is because it's fascinating to me and potentially useful for anyone else interested in considering it. I try and get in to the reasons why this is the case (from my perspective) to encourage others to give it a shot and find out for themselves. I don't expect these words to be taken as gospel, just as an entry point into the consideration of it. Keep in mind, my approach is all experiential and empirical. At the beginning, I tried lots of things without necessarily expecting to know what (if anything) would come of it. However at this point, more often than not, I try and make targeted changes which have the intended effect or outcome. Is it always a huge difference compared to another way of doing it without paying any attention to this particular aspect of it? Not always necessarily. In some cases more than others. I love soldering and just like to experiment and try and observe how any inputs I make may effect outcomes. That's all it is -nothing more. Your results may be different, and that's okay. I don't claim to know everything. This is all just one small part of a bigger picture that I've been able define or put a finger on somewhat that allows me greater control on the end result or outcome on what I'm trying to achieve when I work on a piece of equipment.
 
In before the “show us the measurements” crowd with this note:

We do not know how to measure everything. Humans are still learning and measuring things mentioned above are not common and in many cases unknown as to how to make that measurement of exactly what is being heard.

What some of this above says to me is that the use of tinned copper leads on some audio grade capacitors instead of tinned magnetic material can make an audible difference. Many here believe the work done but major corporations making caps and designing a line or three for audio use is just reaching into pockets for more money. Seems used properly they will lead to a different sound in the unit.

Lots of common products were used in gear back in the day. Ones used across the full product line of units made in the same factories, achieving cost goals instead of striving for the best sound.

Interesting thread.
 
Changing parts on one side and not the other is not the best way to do it. :rolleyes:

If I am are evaluating a crossover component, I will desolder one leg of the old component, and solder the new component to the other leg such that they both have an open leg.

I have a DPDT switch with ~25 feet of wire attached, and alligator clips on the other ends, and I can send three wires to each channel attaching them such that I can instantaneous[y A/B the components in both channels simultaneously from the sweet spot to my heart's content. ;)

BTW, different components definitely have different sounds, even in the conjugate position.
 
That's an interesting way of making comparisons. I could see it with something like keeping the top off an amp or preamp with wires exposed while listening, but how would you do it with a sealed, acoustic suspension speaker cabinet whose drivers all need to be tightened down and sealed in tight as a drum with no airgaps to get their best, most accurate bass response or sound reproduction (for instance)? For a bass reflex speaker design, I suppose you could just feed the wires through the bass port. For me, it's the difference in frequency response from one channel to the next I find useful, but of course there are many other ways of experimenting or doing it that are different or perhaps better. At this point, I don't do the L/R channel listening comparisons as much as I used to because I've already made the associations I was looking to find. Once observed, the same associations hold true for other equipment (if the effect is audible within them or their circuits). This type of comparison is best done at the beginning of experimenting to give feedback and provide a general foundation of sound comparisons or change in tonality or fidelity as it relates to using different material. In this way, equipment is somewhat EQ'ed to sound a certain way internally whether we realize it or not according to which types of parts or materials are used to implement the circuits and subsequent sound they help produce.

Here's another interesting unknown to consider. How much of a piece of equipment's sound is inherent to its circuits involved, and how much of a piece of equipment's sound may change depending on which materials or components are used to implement its circuits? I can tell you it is not 100% circuit dependent only or 100% materials used that is responsible. It is some combination or percentage of both which may vary from piece to piece -the extent to which is largely undefined or unknowable. Sometimes people may say that if different parts change the sound, then there must be something wrong with the equipment itself. That hasn't been my personal experience with it, at all. Some circuits are more susceptible to changes in sound given other materials, while others aren't.

Another interesting thing I've found is that many parts (can) effect sound which would not be considered in a direct audio path by studying a circuit or schematic closely by only following a straight line of an actual audio signal for instance. This is especially true with other aspects such as power supply and the fact that most power supplies are unregulated and therefore have more of a mutable or changeable impact on overall system performance than we may realize -depending on individual specs of power supply caps that are used and the audible system performance characteristics they provide to the sound. We know alot, but there are some things we cannot know from a simply theoretical or logical perspective. Even if everything were knowable, everyone's grasp, interpretation or implementation of it is different depending on their level of understanding or training is going to be different from person to person. Because of this, I assume everything I do or every change I make could matter and make those decisions accordingly and treat every decision as if it potentially matters to the final sound. This minimizes regrets or wondering and second-guessing if I made all the right choices when given the opportunity to do something about it. This is because I try to minimize the amount of times I am compelled to go back in to change something to get a better sound. Ideally, I want to go in just once and make all the changes and improvements that I think may have a positive, or beneficial effect depending on how its sound or voicing initially presents. Sometimes however, it's important to make changes in stages or versions to periodically check everything is still functional. Also, that way any possible reductions or negative changes in sound quality (for instance) are more easily identified and reverted back to original before the issue is compounded by changing more parts out on top of that which makes it harder to identify which parts caused the change in sound. Sometimes I go back in to something several times to tweak it a bit, not because I have to, but because I am curious how my inputs may effect outcomes.

The only way to really know any of it is to do it. There are lots of tests, measuring equipment and simulations I could run, but at the end of the day, that isn't what is actually heard or perceived due to many factors. If that was the case, the equipment with the best specs according to all known tests would consistently sound the best or come out on top -except I've gone down that road and it routinely doesn't. Why not? It provides the foundation or baseline, but not what is actually heard and perceived through the irregular shape of the inner ear canal, or the fact our ears are more and less sensitive to certain frequencies so we need a non-linear frequency response curve for sound to be perceived as perfectly 'flat' to us -i.e. Fletcher-Munson curves, or equipment synergy, and how the final sound of everything (once combined) presents something different than any one piece of it taken in isolation, or how cables, quality of line voltage, power conditioning, room reflections, bass nodes, speaker positioning and room or acoustic treatments effect perceived frequency response. This list of influential factors that can effect the final sound (aside from manufacturer supplied specs on individual equipment) that is perceived goes on and on. Tests and specs do matter, but at the end of the day we cannot hear and enjoy anything measured or evaluated in isolation from everything else that effects or impacts it; and even if we could, our ears have their own unique characteristics and are somewhat flawed as the only hearing instrument we have so we are forced to work within their limitations if the objective is to obtain the best sound we can hear. They pick up and perceive sound differently than precision measuring equipment or laboratory microphones.

Testing and measuring is absolutely 100% crucial to everything and helps provide the needed baseline where everything must start from a design standpoint to offer a technically clean and uncolored sound with the idea being that every component we add to this "should" be chosen carefully to present a perfectly linear response to minimize any combined or additive distortions or non-linearities to final sound, but this isn't how it ends up working in reality because many components we add to our system that we think are having no effect aren't perfect and are still having an effect that we're largely unaware of. This is why I like to simply listen to what it is I am doing and what the overall, final impact is with regards to part selection. It fast-forwards to the very end or net result of everything combined together. When replacing original components with upgraded material, there isn't much of a downside in terms of causing a reduction in performance in terms of things like distortion, signal loss/ signal interaction, etc. The better materials routinely measure better in all knowable parameters. But if things ever end up sounding worse, things simply get reverted back. It's not that better material always has to be used -only when it matters or you're up for changing things around. Ultimately, it's just a curiosity that can have actual benefits -depending on how far you care to take it.
 
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If it can't be measured and two people can't agree on a sonic difference, does it really exist?

This is why I dislike subjectivity.
 
If it can't be measured and two people can't agree on a sonic difference, does it really exist?

This is why I dislike subjectivity.
Sometimes it can be measured (indeed I would state that sufficient objective criteria exist so that audio systems (including the acoustic environment) can be declared to be acoustically good/superior based purely on measurements) but there are those that prefer the impaired (i.e. objectively a very poorly measuring on one or more dimensions) system.
For example, poor frequency response, poor impulse response characteristics, poor decay characteristics, high levels of interaction between the amp output impedance and the speaker load, high and clearly audible even order distortion products. At that point the audio system becomes a "musical instrument", so no agreement is likely to be reached.
 
Even when it can be measured, there is still subjective interpretation of which measurement actually matters. Even i have to admit to have listened to things that should be superior just based on numbers but preferred the sound of something else.

I think the only consensus is there is no consensus
 
To me at least, it seems specs and measurement provide the objectivity (if there is any objectivity to be gleaned from any of it), except that better specs doesn't correlate to better sound which is the issue. A high SINAD score on a new factory component isn't guaranteed getting me as close to the music as I know is possible from past experience. PRaT is a better indicator of how "good" something actually sounds. However, it's more subjective so therefore may be seen as completely illegitimate by some. As mentioned, the issue with it is that nothing can be heard (or taken) in isolation from everything else which impacts, adds to, and colors the final sound that is heard from all factors combined. This includes other inter-connected equipment, cables, speaker positioning, room reflections, irregularly shaped ear canals perceiving linear sound in a non-linear way, etc.

This is why I go back to materials themselves as providing the consistency in sound. For instance, silver will always provide the most detail and best HF extension when it comes to metals. It's not subjective but is borne out again and again every time it is used or substituted. Cheap alloys or less conductive metals provide a brash, more edgy sound that masquerades as excitement, but is tiresome. It's not subjective. Nobody listening to an Elna Silmic II electrolytic will say it is edgy or hurts their ears at upper frequencies. It's not subjective. Film used in cable insulators and capacitors with the lowest dielectric constant provides the best musical separation when an audio signal passes through it. It's not subjective. Metal fim resistors sound more precise than carbon film. It's not subjective. Wire/cable insulated in pvc, nylon or vinyl will tend to smear all the musical information together. You don't know it or are not aware of it until you try purer/ higher conductivity conductors in insulation with a lower dielectric constant such as cotton, air, polypropylene or teflon. This is not subjective. You combine enough of these observations together, over and over, and pretty soon you're able to take a step back and see the larger picture which then allows some targeted changes to sound to be made where desired. Just because we don't know everything does not mean we can't know some things. I certainly don't know everything, just that I've become acutely aware of some associations using specific components in certain scenarios that tends to turn out the same way, over and over. Perhaps none of this is even worth one like from someone. So be it. It's too bad as it gives some practical guidelines and targeted info for those interested in sound-shaping and puts you in the driver seat. Like it or not, we play a role as an EQ just by the choices we make when putting any system together in any room. So, why not play a more active role instead of a passive one?

At the end of it all, everything is run through a recapped/ upgraded Mastering Processor/ EQ with RTA to get a real-time frequency response curve of everything combined together in a specific listening space so that any small adjustments to an ideal FR curve are made. I usually settle on a curve closely resembling the Fletcher-Munson curves. This is where it gets interesting. You might wonder, why not just keep all the equipment original and make all these adjustments through the EQ to start with? I've found that a combo of re-worked equipment using the same exact FR curve that the original components had (before) sounds better afterwards -once I've worked through it all. How is this even possible? I don't know, but I know that just because I don't know exactly why, doesn't make it any less noticeable or apparent afterwards and shouldn't be used as a reason to negate everything else I've observed leading up to that point which has helped create the final sound I am now hearing. For instance, I found that even something as simple as a silver fuse in my EQ effects the sound -even when it is still applying the same frequency response curve as before. Anyways, the point being there's really nothing to lose and everything to gain. You can always revert back to original parts when the changes aren't to your liking. No harm, no foul. Just a lot of undiscovered circuit potential waiting to be exploited that was left on the table due to the original implementation where cost savings were considered. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain -except the cost of better parts and time spent.
 
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Or, perhaps let these ne'er-do-wells win and a mod could shut down this thread from any further comments as it doesn't appear anyone has anything that is actually useful to add at this point except to chastise me or my approach to what it is I do. It's really too bad. There's more I'd like to share here but feel it just isn't possible without getting constantly thrown under the bus and disrespected by others for one reason or another.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Parts is going to make a difference and there are reasons to chose one 'type' over another each having impact on the totality of the sound signature of a unit and a system.
 
Just a reminder on the Rules of the Cutting Edge forums

The Cutting Edge/Thinking Out Loud:

OVERVIEW

This is where you come when you are done debating the validity of controversial topics and are focused on the goal of getting your system to function at its highest capability.

THE RULES:

Discussion is to be limited to problem-solving and goal reaching. General theory questions are welcome, but please let everyone know why it's on your mind.
You must respect people you don’t agree with and allow them to have their own views. This forum is not a place to challenge people to provide proof or to publicly dismiss them for lack of proof.
Thread craps will not be tolerated. What constitutes a thread crap in specific cases will be at the discretion of the moderation staff. (We will all use rules 1 and 2 for guidance)

What we will be doing:

In addition to the usual matters of sources, amplification and speakers, we will also be discussing all aspects of system building from your breaker panel through to the room you listen in.
‘All aspects’ of system building includes cables, tweaks, even components like capacitors – the focus is on squeezing the best out of what we have with the blinders off.
We will be supporting each other’s efforts in a constructive and helpful way.

What we won’t be doing:

We will not be debating “dead horse” topics.
We will not be challenging each other to provide proof of anything.
We will not be passing judgment on a topic based on what something costs.
We will not be cutting each other down to size and giving each other a hard time.
 
In before the “show us the measurements” crowd with this note:

We do not know how to measure everything. Humans are still learning and measuring things mentioned above are not common and in many cases unknown as to how to make that measurement of exactly what is being heard.

What some of this above says to me is that the use of tinned copper leads on some audio grade capacitors instead of tinned magnetic material can make an audible difference. Many here believe the work done but major corporations making caps and designing a line or three for audio use is just reaching into pockets for more money. Seems used properly they will lead to a different sound in the unit.

Lots of common products were used in gear back in the day. Ones used across the full product line of units made in the same factories, achieving cost goals instead of striving for the best sound.

Interesting thread.
With a sound source, we can measure everything that's audible to people. What we can't measure is people's response to the sound.
 
With a sound source, we can measure everything that's audible to people. What we can't measure is people's response to the sound.
We can measure everything we know how to measure. Are you saying we know everything about sound measurements now and 100 years into the future? I’m saying we may well find more things to measure. I know we are finding out more about the universe every day and all the things in it and that includes how to evaluate them.

When we determine how exactly measure how each electron moves in a conductor, I expect we will have a new set of wires for interconnects, unless we make wireless the equal of connected.
 
We can measure everything we know how to measure. Are you saying we know everything about sound measurements now and 100 years into the future? I’m saying we may well find more things to measure. I know we are finding out more about the universe every day and all the things in it and that includes how to evaluate them.

When we determine how exactly measure how each electron moves in a conductor, I expect we will have a new set of wires for interconnects, unless we make wireless the equal of connected.
Yes. Measurement of sound and using analytical tools such as FFT is cut, dried and complete. What's difficult to measure is, as I've said before, our perception of sound. Sound covers what, 20Hz to 20kHz at most? At those frequencies, us RF guys just get out and walk.
 
What's interesting I've found doing lots of audio tweaking over the years and many listening experiments with regards to material and part selection comparisons and its effect on sound, is that all possibilities are not really created equal in all ways. Keep in mind, these are just my thoughts on what I've noticed over the years and may be subject to change. Sometimes new information comes in that changes my understanding or associations, but for the most part, I've noticed consistencies that have become relatively reliable to the point of predicting how something will turn out sounding (specifically regarding the effect of changing caps, resistors or wiring IF the effect will be audible within the circuit).

It's easy to think everything is the same in a functional sense, and while this is true as most good options will "work" as long as they meet the basic criteria and requirements of the circuit using the same general specs as originally supplied components, the actual sound you get from using different component material can vary. There's a performance hierarchy of materials you can use to implement a circuit. In addition to the dielectric characteristics of film insulators (dielectric constant, dielectric loss, dielectric absorption and even dissipation factor) effecting the audio signal in cables and capacitors with regards to smearing/ blending/ leeching and loss of the musical signal with less delineated lows, mids, and highs; the same general effect occurs with metals in conductors as it relates to their conductivity ratings in the sense that metals/ alloys with a lower IACS (conductivity) rating will present the same irregularities in signal response from input to output; i.e. less musical separation compared to the best, most conductive metals available -such as silver. Copper-clad aluminum wire vs. silver wire for instance (around 66% IACS for the CCA compared to about 107% IACS for the silver).

Yes, the myriad of available material options will transit the same signal, but to varying degrees of interaction with the original signal and subsequent performance of sound that is heard through them.

Also, impure or low-grade metals and cheap alloys as conductors are much more likely to present as bright or sibilant which I believe to be a result of distortion. Sometimes, this edgy sound may come across as exciting or "revealing" at first but you may have to turn the volume down to continue listening to them over extended periods as they cause listening fatigue.

The best materials don't aim to "add" anything to the signal, they simply prevent loss and minimize interaction with it as much as possible. Some products are better at it than others from an electrical performance perspective -while others aren't and try to use deceptive marketing and inflated prices to re-package cheaper, under performing materials as "new" or "better" which leads many unscrupulous listeners to doubt that anything even matters or could make any difference or that everything claiming to be any different than anything else must always be "snake oil" just trying take more of your hard-earned money. This is why it's always good to focus on base materials used instead of name brands, marketing claims and inflated prices, while understanding there's a definite hierarchy of material performance and characteristics that every part or component may be subject to when it's effect may be audible within a circuit.

Some examples of this may include the following:

Polyester (mylar) caps have a lower performance threshold compared to polypropylene or teflon, but may also be preferred because they may tend to present as more "natural", "vintage", or have have better "tone" or fuller midrange according to some. When listening to music, not everyone is looking to get every last detail out of the recording from a technical perspective and it doesn't mean they're wrong or that only one size fits all, i.e. only the best materials should be used for all people and equipment at all times. This is why music and listening can be subjective. Some people want to take it as high as they can go from a technical or performance sense (like me), while others simply want to enjoy the experience and are content to not think about it or worry about it as much and want it to feel good or sound "right" as determined by how it has sounded to them in the past and how they are use to hearing it since they're familiar with what it's supposed to sound like which (again) is based off past experience with familiar tracks for instance.

Another example is that metal film resistors are more precise and accurate, some would say cold, clinical or sterile (modern as opposed to vintage); but only when compared to carbon film, or especially the older carbon composition types which may become so warm with time as they drift out of spec as to become thick and syrupy sounding.

Silver will bring out the most detail and sense of space, speed, and lightness to the sound with the highest performance ceiling to convey small details and a larger soundfield with the best musical separation and delineation of lows, mids, and highs with special emphasis on HF extension that wasn't heard or experienced before using lesser material.

Gold, copper or oil in cables or capacitors will sometimes present a richer, more natural midrange dominant type of sound with less HF extension than silver with none of the edgy hash or excitement (distortion) masquerading as detail that is often heard with some of the lesser conducting metals and alloys.

It is amazing to me how sound works in the sense that it's very easy to get used to what we have as sounding perfectly fine and normal -there's nothing wrong with it. It generally remains this way (ignorance is bliss) until we hear something else. It is only then do any differences begin to emerge that we may notice. It is only at that point can we begin to see (and hear) the possibility of how different equipment or components can actually sound different. Up 'til then, it's just a hypothetical that is subject to our innate skepticism. This is why if you're happy with what you have, it's best to just leave it alone because the more you dig, the more you'll realize what is possible that you were missing before.

Whether we like it or not, we effect the frequency response of our equipment simply due to the fact we combine different pieces of equipment together using different cables which all have an inherent sound and limitation to them, the end result of which is that every equipment combo we put together has a frequency response shaped by everything that went into to creating a final sound and is somewhat unique. For instance, we may say we prefer a linear sound with all tone controls bypassed, but the equipment we've put together in the listening space and speaker positioning it is presented in creates a unique sound with it's own frequency response that will not be perfectly linear or flat and would be slightly different than the next person using the same equipment in their own space with their own cables (for instance). If nothing else, we are the EQ -whether we use an actual equalizer and choose to acknowledge that, or not.

Since we're the EQ, the next step after recognizing that is to use it to our advantage through part selection as it relates to voicing equipment if we find the equipment lacking, or almost perfect, with something that is "off" with the sound that we wish could be slightly different or better. Original parts have a sound to them whether we realize it or not. Additionally, the way something sounded forty years ago when it was new is no longer the way it sounds now because parts have degraded or drifted with time, while we mistakenly assume it still has an "all-original" sound we don't want to mess with.

Sometimes, all possible materials that could be used were considered by the engineers who created the product. Sometimes you will hear things like "don't mess with that, the engineers knew what they were doing". While this is true, you also have to take into consideration the age of equipment and whether some of these newer, better performing materials were even available at the time. In many cases, they weren't. In other instances, the equipment was built to a price point and even if the engineer knew something sounded better, they weren't always able to use the best materials at all times so it was somewhat of a compromise from the very beginning. Not because they wanted to create something average sounding, but because they were working within the budget of a larger framework or business model that had limitations on production cost. They did the best with what they had available to them at the time, but it doesn't always mean it was the best it could've been. In most cases, it isn't.

The way you prove this or make it better is to replace average sounding (old) materials and components with newer, better performing ones and compare them in real-time by doing L/R stereo listening comparisons. I do this by starting with something perfectly functional while looking for circuit symmetry and keeping one side original while slowly replacing other specific parts on the experimental channel with the same values and ratings as the originals and observe the results. Sometimes you will hear no difference as not all parts are audible within a circuit. Other times, you will. Doing this over and over you begin to form associations and an understanding of how materials (can) effect sound.

Thank you 2x for sharing that ..
Most of the phenomenon that you're describing has been the experience of my 50 year audio obsession ..
Far too many people fail to understand the physics of what's occurring in there, or the how's and why's as to how that might affect the audio output signal ..

You clearly have a grasp, and again, thank you for taking the time to describe what has to be the result of years worth of audio experiments.
 
To me at least, it seems specs and measurement provide the objectivity (if there is any objectivity to be gleaned from any of it), except that better specs doesn't correlate to better sound which is the issue. A high SINAD score on a new factory component isn't guaranteed getting me as close to the music as I know is possible from past experience. PRaT is a better indicator of how "good" something actually sounds. However, it's more subjective so therefore may be seen as completely illegitimate by some. As mentioned, the issue with it is that nothing can be heard (or taken) in isolation from everything else which impacts, adds to, and colors the final sound that is heard from all factors combined. This includes other inter-connected equipment, cables, speaker positioning, room reflections, irregularly shaped ear canals perceiving linear sound in a non-linear way, etc.

This is why I go back to materials themselves as providing the consistency in sound. For instance, silver will always provide the most detail and best HF extension when it comes to metals. It's not subjective but is borne out again and again every time it is used or substituted. Cheap alloys or less conductive metals provide a brash, more edgy sound that masquerades as excitement, but is tiresome. It's not subjective. Nobody listening to an Elna Silmic II electrolytic will say it is edgy or hurts their ears at upper frequencies. It's not subjective. Film used in cable insulators and capacitors with the lowest dielectric constant provides the best musical separation when an audio signal passes through it. It's not subjective. Metal fim resistors sound more precise than carbon film. It's not subjective. Wire/cable insulated in pvc, nylon or vinyl will tend to smear all the musical information together. You don't know it or are not aware of it until you try purer/ higher conductivity conductors in insulation with a lower dielectric constant such as cotton, air, polypropylene or teflon. This is not subjective. You combine enough of these observations together, over and over, and pretty soon you're able to take a step back and see the larger picture which then allows some targeted changes to sound to be made where desired. Just because we don't know everything does not mean we can't know some things. I certainly don't know everything, just that I've become acutely aware of some associations using specific components in certain scenarios that tends to turn out the same way, over and over. Perhaps none of this is even worth one like from someone. So be it. It's too bad as it gives some practical guidelines and targeted info for those interested in sound-shaping and puts you in the driver seat. Like it or not, we play a role as an EQ just by the choices we make when putting any system together in any room. So, why not play a more active role instead of a passive one?

At the end of it all, everything is run through a recapped/ upgraded Mastering Processor/ EQ with RTA to get a real-time frequency response curve of everything combined together in a specific listening space so that any small adjustments to an ideal FR curve are made. I usually settle on a curve closely resembling the Fletcher-Munson curves. This is where it gets interesting. You might wonder, why not just keep all the equipment original and make all these adjustments through the EQ to start with? I've found that a combo of re-worked equipment using the same exact FR curve that the original components had (before) sounds better afterwards -once I've worked through it all. How is this even possible? I don't know, but I know that just because I don't know exactly why, doesn't make it any less noticeable or apparent afterwards and shouldn't be used as a reason to negate everything else I've observed leading up to that point which has helped create the final sound I am now hearing. For instance, I found that even something as simple as a silver fuse in my EQ effects the sound -even when it is still applying the same frequency response curve as before. Anyways, the point being there's really nothing to lose and everything to gain. You can always revert back to original parts when the changes aren't to your liking. No harm, no foul. Just a lot of undiscovered circuit potential waiting to be exploited that was left on the table due to the original implementation where cost savings were considered. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain -except the cost of better parts and time spent.

That is one of the most cogent statements that I've ever read on this board ...
If I could like it 14x I would ..
 
Yes. Measurement of sound and using analytical tools such as FFT is cut, dried and complete. What's difficult to measure is, as I've said before, our perception of sound. Sound covers what, 20Hz to 20kHz at most? At those frequencies, us RF guys just get out and walk.
This is the problem with western thinking, it's unscientific to assume that any knowledge base is 'complete' do you have evidence to discount the possibility of new discoveries in this field ?
 
Cutting Edge ...

The space for discussing those things that clearly affect what we're hearing, but aren't yet Standard Audio Practice ..

Cutting Edge ..
And they can only become Standard practice if we keep exploring, experimenting, and asking Why ??

After almost 60 years, I've watched what once was cutting edge, become standard audio design practice repeatedly ..
An audio signal has electrical characteristics, but it can be and audibly is, affected by subtle electrical phenomenon that have no affect on power transmission.

The characteristics that circuit materials contribute to the audible characteristics of the circuit output are still evolving and forever need to be explored ..
 
It reminds me of how it was best practice to use lampcord as speaker cabling well into the 70's or 80's as an example. I don't know exactly when it fell out of favor somewhat -perhaps when Audioquest entered the scene? Of course, it still works just the same, just fine -good enough for most people like it always has and always will. Plenty are still using regular generic/bulk copper stranded in pvc, and that's okay. But, prior to this, the conventional thinking was that speaker cable didn't really matter (at all) and was always "good enough" when chosen solely based off the gauge required for the distance needed with little to no attention paid to the materials used to construct it. Of course awg/thickness remains a crucial element in determining the right cable for any setup, but it isn't the only parameter that matters. Now, we know there's much more at play with speaker cable besides the necessary gauge needed to cover the distance required as it relates to its performance ceiling, EMI noise rejection, overall fidelity and sound characteristics. Other considerations such as insulator material (and the dielectric properties of film especially and how that effects a signal passing next to it) as well as the conductor's IACS rating and crystal/ grain structure. Cable geometry can also impact performance among other factors including the base metal and plating metals used to terminate conductors with various connectors. Also, stranded vs/ solid-core or plated conductors can also impact performance, as can plating materials, their conductivity and resistance or susceptibility to tarnishing or oxidizing when exposed to air over time leading to diminished signal quality, etc.

One thing I can admit to is associating certain sound characteristics to different materials. However, this can be a problematic way of looking at it. Probably a better way of looking at it is to say that certain materials prevent the limitations that other materials possess and contribute to the signal where that effect may be audible or noticed. It's not that silver is the "be all, end all" conductor that could ever exist (necessarily, and for instance) or that there's anything "special" about it; it's that it simply has less limitation and resistance compared to other conductors that we are currently aware of and are using. You're not hearing the "silver" or whatever that means, you're hearing less resistance or the absence of limiting factors and other detrimental effects of using other conductors. This is why the correlation is often made to the material itself, i.e. because it's repeatable and much easier to reference in that way. Also, there's a temptation to globalize results. I say silver will do x,y,z to a signal because it has for me consistently. So much so, that I interpret that as applying to other people as well because it has never let me down in terms of what I expect (and get) from using it where its effect may be audible (which isn't every instance, but if it is, it's remarkably consistent). Everyone's experience may be different and we all perceive reality subjectively, but some things are easier to globalize than others and do apply universally. For instance, an RFS Silmic II electrolytic capacitor will never sound edgy, bright, sibilant or tiresome at HF when directly compared to most all other electrolytics. The trick is in finding enough of these universals and implementing them to receive a consistent result -where effects may be audible, since not all component changes can have a measurable effect or impact on sound since all circuit implementations and results of what's audible (and what isn't) are going to be different when going from one piece of equipment to another and depending on the part's function or role within a circuit.

What interests me is how easy it is for us to compartmentalize everything into separate silos of what is considered to be meaningful interaction between components (parts/ materials) and equipment. One the one hand, maybe parts matter for some people and not others. When you ask those same people which parts matter or could effect sound, they may only focus on what is internal to the equipment. Another camp may say it's only the circuit design that matters and not the parts/ materials used to implement the design -since good circuit design just works and speaks for itself. Instead, they may focus more on externals like RCA or XLR cables that they attribute to a potential change in sound quality, or that other pieces of equipment when combined together, invariably create a "final sound". Some would also include and focus more heavily on the power cords or fuses in this consideration, others wouldn't and may not even consider these as "parts" that could even have any effect. Some would extoll the virtues of using power conditioners as a necessity for better sound, others wouldn't and might say why should it matter when you have miles of sub-standard wiring leading up to your home? Everyone falls somewhere on this continuum or line of thinking. It's like an FM radio dial from 88-108. Everyone is more or less approaching it from a specific frequency (which is their current level of understanding), either because it was their native skepticism or original understanding of how things work, they're picking up on a collective vibe of perceived truth of the widely available information regarding it, or it resulted from spending years experimenting and comparing different materials and components from a hands-on empirical perspective instead of a theoretical one.

I found (and am still finding) that much more of it is related and inter-connected than I had initially considered. Instead of using theory to dictate and prove my experiences, I took the opposite approach and went into it expecting or assuming very little and instead relied on repeated perceptions and outcomes of experiments and listening comparisons, and then tried to justify what was happening that way. It leads to a very unconventional understanding of how/why things do what they do and the possible interactions that may cause them to occur. I am sometimes wrong on Why something matters, but less often wrong that something Does matter. The question then becomes, prove it. If you can't or that wasn't the focus of why you were doing the experiments in the first place, then they may be dismissed without much further consideration by a large subset of people. I live with that reality and while I don't like it, I try not to fight it as much. They have a good point, and often times I can't answer them in the ways that would be needed to satisfy them since it was never my focus or reason for doing what I was doing to begin with. The picture is also much larger than I originally thought in terms of what can (and does) have an effect. There are literally variables placed on top of other variables creating new variables that didn't exist in isolation from the original, known variables. Some call it synergy or the totality (or net effect) of everything combined. I think that's closer to the truth of what's happening.
 
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