Oh great, more speakers
- Thread starter kfa888
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2DualsNotEnough
Addicted Member
Nice find,kfa888.I found some full range 12" Utah Celestas a few months ago.Same deal as you-found them in the thrift,went over to housewares,got a butter knife,etc.The cabs I put mine in are a little bigger than yours,but I bet I could go a lot bigger.Mine dont have cones in the center,they have this strange metal doo-hickey instead.My surrounds are cloth also,but these have more bass than what you describe.Im sure youll end up liking yours as much as I do mine.
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kfa888
Addicted Member
2DualsNotEnough said:
I had one 8" (or was that 6 " ???) version of the one you have there a while back. Gave it to a friend. I actually think that is a coaix and that is a tweeter in the middle but I could be wrong. Neet looking speaker. (see below)
I'm pretty sure my surrounds are like yours and are cloth as well. I think the issue is the stuff they put on the cloth gets hard.
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kfa888
Addicted Member
wineslob said:
I try not to feed her that crap at all. She is 2 and our new years resolution around here is to eat better food, make more home cooked food and stay away from drive throughs. They make that food so accessable and cheap it is a struggle not to take the easy way out.
Hey, we just hijacked my own thread
kfa888
Addicted Member
Ok, round two:
I set the "one speaker wonders" up in the living room and have started more critical listening and amp partnering. These things actually sound quit good. they are different and do not have the impact the Maggie / MK sub system have but they do some things I have never heard from speakers before. Maybe this is the point source thing everyone who is into that raves about? Interesting in deed. They did gain quit a bit more lows with better placement. I have tried two amps on them, a weird TOTL "Wards" amp (bottom one in picture), a made in Japan chip amp. Sounded very good with this amp and had that intimacy and clearness that is hard to describe. Not a lot of bottom but enough to satisfy and not sound totally missing. I bypassed the EQ but was running the loudness button. Good clear sound with a quality to vocals and mid range stuff I have a hard time describing. Next up amp match wise was a funky JVC amp I got a while back. Cool amp with a 5 band graphic EQ. With this amp they sound fuller and warmer with more bottom end but seemed to loose a little of that magic and realism I am trying to describe. Looser less intimate sound. I have about 5 other amps to try and I can see these are going to be very sensitive to amp matching. I need to try my favorites, Pioneer SX-1010 and SX-650 and see what this do with them. They are heavily attached to other equipment right now so that's not a quick and easy thing to do at this point.
I can already see the down side of these $12.99 speakers is that they are going to yank me down that path of tubes and purist signal paths. I get it now. Maybe I'll save that journey for later in life when the kids are gone more and I can concentrate on the intimacy that approach brings. But this has shed some light on that aspect of critical music listening. Great, Tannoys, MC tube amps and high end TT's AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH Don't get me wrong, I fully understand these are not high end point source speakers but they do speak to that philosophy and I'm glad I got them as it does open my eyes to that sound. I think I know now why I was drawn to the GW when I passed it by all the other days. Audio Karma in full effect.
I tend to find things I like about all speakers and over look shortcomings. I have a very positive attitude, always have, and I think this is what draws me to many speakers even if they are drastically different I still end up likening a lot of things about them for what they are.
Not where are those single ended 2 watt tube mono blocks I had laying around... Oh, yeah, I don't have any. Someone want to trade 10 pairs of speakers for a nice tube amp?
I set the "one speaker wonders" up in the living room and have started more critical listening and amp partnering. These things actually sound quit good. they are different and do not have the impact the Maggie / MK sub system have but they do some things I have never heard from speakers before. Maybe this is the point source thing everyone who is into that raves about? Interesting in deed. They did gain quit a bit more lows with better placement. I have tried two amps on them, a weird TOTL "Wards" amp (bottom one in picture), a made in Japan chip amp. Sounded very good with this amp and had that intimacy and clearness that is hard to describe. Not a lot of bottom but enough to satisfy and not sound totally missing. I bypassed the EQ but was running the loudness button. Good clear sound with a quality to vocals and mid range stuff I have a hard time describing. Next up amp match wise was a funky JVC amp I got a while back. Cool amp with a 5 band graphic EQ. With this amp they sound fuller and warmer with more bottom end but seemed to loose a little of that magic and realism I am trying to describe. Looser less intimate sound. I have about 5 other amps to try and I can see these are going to be very sensitive to amp matching. I need to try my favorites, Pioneer SX-1010 and SX-650 and see what this do with them. They are heavily attached to other equipment right now so that's not a quick and easy thing to do at this point.
I can already see the down side of these $12.99 speakers is that they are going to yank me down that path of tubes and purist signal paths. I get it now. Maybe I'll save that journey for later in life when the kids are gone more and I can concentrate on the intimacy that approach brings. But this has shed some light on that aspect of critical music listening. Great, Tannoys, MC tube amps and high end TT's AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH Don't get me wrong, I fully understand these are not high end point source speakers but they do speak to that philosophy and I'm glad I got them as it does open my eyes to that sound. I think I know now why I was drawn to the GW when I passed it by all the other days. Audio Karma in full effect.
I tend to find things I like about all speakers and over look shortcomings. I have a very positive attitude, always have, and I think this is what draws me to many speakers even if they are drastically different I still end up likening a lot of things about them for what they are.
Not where are those single ended 2 watt tube mono blocks I had laying around... Oh, yeah, I don't have any. Someone want to trade 10 pairs of speakers for a nice tube amp?
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Charivari
Fighting Naïve Realism
Had a long response and lost it thanks to hitting the wrong button. Hate it when that happens. At any rate, are you sure that the magical sound you're hearing is due to the point source sound or more to the crossoverless design? At any rate, welcome to that dark path after musical speakers (Magnepans) of audiophile speakers (Tannoys and the like) that leads to that vicious circle of system tweaking. Once you get better speakers, you want to adjust the electronics feeding them, then it becomes time to adjust the speakers, etc.
Now, are you so sure you want to go to tube amps? Those are even more addicting in tweakability and act as rather sizable money pits. Besides, I've a great image you can use in solid state pride ...
You might want to try those drivers in something better, say experiment with an open baffle to gain some of that dipole sound you seem to be fond of.
- JP
Now, are you so sure you want to go to tube amps? Those are even more addicting in tweakability and act as rather sizable money pits. Besides, I've a great image you can use in solid state pride ...
You might want to try those drivers in something better, say experiment with an open baffle to gain some of that dipole sound you seem to be fond of.
- JP
piece-it pete
What, me worry?
kfa, great score! I would think that tubes would go well with the speaks on the bottom, too, - Wharfs?
I have a University speaker system that while not a single driver (a three way with a built-in sub - in 1960!) has that magic in the midrange, that oh-so-smoothness. I have been told that when a speaker rolls off fairly low (the university rolls off steeply at 12khz) there is that effect, that the mids sound better. There is a word for it, but as usual I can't remember.
Not to say that's the only reason - I hear a pair of those two way Tannoys at last years' fest and wow - they are good! Just thought I'd mention it...
Pete
I have a University speaker system that while not a single driver (a three way with a built-in sub - in 1960!) has that magic in the midrange, that oh-so-smoothness. I have been told that when a speaker rolls off fairly low (the university rolls off steeply at 12khz) there is that effect, that the mids sound better. There is a word for it, but as usual I can't remember.
Not to say that's the only reason - I hear a pair of those two way Tannoys at last years' fest and wow - they are good! Just thought I'd mention it...
Pete
kfa888
Addicted Member
Charivari said:
I'm not sure if I have my pants on right or not so NO I have no idea what is causing this sensation but I do like it.
as for tubes, I have been a tube lover ever since getting my first tube guitar amp 25 years ago. Never had one for audio but I know exactly what it brings to the table.
The more I listen to these the more I like them. Great more keepers!!!! I have not even got around to doing the surrounds on my AP91's and I really want to here those as well as I have never heard AR's.
fun stuff.
- edit -
Yes, Already thought about the dipole idea :scratch2:
cableguy
In Twang We Trust
I really envy you guys that are in or close to these big and hip towns. You gotta feel like a kid in the candy store at times. Don't get me wrong, I do pretty good out here in the country, but it really takes some doing and often a lot of driving. I lived in Portland back in the mid 80's to the early 90's. What an absolutly cool town, I still miss it and the freinds we had there. I can only guess that you forget more in a month than I see see in six. Enjoy those new speakers and I have enjoyed this thread immensely. I see these Utah's on the bay and such and have been wondering about their sound.
The two are kind of inextricably entwinged. You lose the point source and simultaneously create the need for a xover when you go to separate woogers and twizzlers. The spatial separation of the two causes lobing and worse mischief, and if you plunk the crossover point anywhere near the midrange there's going to be trouble. And we haven't even begun to explore the topic of time-alignment, of getting the W and T in sync... not that this helps much.Charivari said:
I'm scheduled to do some futzing with an active Linkwitz-Riley xover here pretty soon and will report on its effect on a '70s dinosaur with a typically bad xover, the ESS amt-II. Meanwhile, see about getting some Ohm Walshes and maybe one of the KEF Uni-Q speakers. And some electrostatic headphones.
Charivari
Fighting Naïve Realism
Ah, but what about Tannoys and similar DC designs? Those, at least according to the advertising, are supposed to be a fairly close facsimile of a point source speaker while using two drivers. 'Course the crossover at 1.2 kHz is still there to muck some things up, which may explain why I like the midrange on Magnepans better with their single driver operating up a fair bit higher. Now about the time alignment issue, my Infinity Quantum 2s are supposedly phase and time aligned, according to the advertising again. I can say that they sound better than I'd expect for 4-ways.wualta said:
Now that sounds like a fun experiment, I look forward to reading about the results of it. And wrt the e-stat headphones, I'm working on that bit.wualta said:
Kelly, the Maggies are actually two-ways, just the tweeter uses the same Mylar as the mid/bass panel. They behave more like a line array than a point source.
- JP
As long as the drivers are physically or electrically aligned so they behave as a single driver through the crossover region and the woofer cone is shaped so as not to cause cavity resonances, then yes, the coax driver is a good compromise, which is why I mentioned the KEF Uni-Q. Coax mounting seems such a good idea that I wonder why there aren't more of them. As it is, they seem to serve as exceptions that prove the rule.Charivari said:
Anytime you complicate things you increase the chance that something will futz up, of course. Theoretically, a proper coax driver should vastly simplify xover design. Real world, the designer would still have to deal with the nonideal characteristics that accompany any passive crossover. Now-- to get hold of a good electronic xover with built-in variable delay... that might drop a train on a few problems..charivari said:
As you can see, this would be difficult, since the voice coil of the EMIT/M is mounted far forward of the voice coil for the woofer. But since there are separate drivers, I'd question the need for strict alignment anyway.charivari said:
It's an interesting question: At exactly what point do you lose the "magic" of a single fullrange driver, whether point or line?
kfa888
Addicted Member
I get the idea behind time aligned but will this not only work if you are exactly the right distance from the speaker to make it all happen? :scratch2:
You guys can fool around with your goofy multi speakers all you want, I'm sticking to the single speaker systems.
First it was sand filled baffles, then Mylar now single speaker. I'm fickle... or I just like the merits of all these designs. Again, this is what I like about speakers in general.
You guys can fool around with your goofy multi speakers all you want, I'm sticking to the single speaker systems.
First it was sand filled baffles, then Mylar now single speaker. I'm fickle... or I just like the merits of all these designs. Again, this is what I like about speakers in general.