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Ohms ? What are they

ric27

New Member
reading the manual for my Sansui 5000x it states 65 watts into 8 ohms - 85 watts into 4 ohms.

I have 4 Advents stacked (2 right 2 left ) and wired up to act as one very large 4 ohm speaker per channel . the set up sounds very good to me and the 5000x drives them with ease.

Am it gaining , loosing or breaking even on power with this set up vs the standard 8 ohm load?

Is 4 ohms a higher load than 8 ohms?

What does this all mean?

Ric
 
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An ohm is an electrical unit of resistance. The lower the impedance (ohms), the greater the amount of current delivered therefore yes, a 4 ohm load draws twice the current of 8 ohms.
 
An ohm is an electrical unit of resistance. The lower the impedance (ohms), the greater the amount of current delivered therefore yes, a 4 ohm load draws twice the current of 8 ohms.
Thanks 62caddy,
So is 85 watts going into one 4 ohm speaker more power than 65 watts going into two 8 ohm speakers?
 
Ohms are a measure of resistance.

Amplifiers are rated based on the maximum amount of power that they can deliver into a resistive load on a continuous basis without clipping the signal. Clipping occurs when the amp cannot produce enough voltage to fully reproduce the signal.

Speakers are rated by their impedance, which is a form of resistance which varies by frequency. While many manufacturers do not adhere to the IEC standard, it states that a speaker's actual impedance should not drop below 80% of its rated impedance. So, for example, there should be no point on an 8 ohm speaker's impedance curve at which it drops below 6.4 ohms.

The amplifier must deliver (or try to deliver) the current demanded by the load (ie the speaker). The lower the speaker's impedance, the greater the amount of current it draws. Read up on Ohm's Law.

Theoretically, if resistance is halved, current is doubled. In the real world, most amps cannot produce enough voltage to double their delivery of current. To do so, the amp must have a fully regulated voltage supply (power supply), and enough output devices (output transistors) and heat sinking to withstand the accompanying heat that is produced. The heat is as a result of inefficiency in the conversion of input power to output power. The power supply, output devices and heat sinking are the most expensive elements of an amplifier, so to keep them affordable, compromises are made.

This is reflected in your amplifier's power rating. Ideally, if it produces 65 watts into 8 ohms it would produce 130 watts (voltage x current) into 4 ohms.

So, again speaking about an "ideal" amplifier, the power going into two pairs of identical speakers is the same as is going into one pair. The load presented by a pair of 8 ohm speakers wired to the amplifier in parallel = 4 ohms. So, if the ideal amplifier is putting out 2 amperes of current into a single 8 ohm speaker, it would put out 4 amperes into the 4 ohm load presented by the two paralleled speakers,, with each getting half of it. Voltage would be unchanged (theoretically), assuming same setting on the volume control, so each of the 2 paralleled 8 ohm speakers would get the same amount of power that a single 8 ohm speaker would get. BTW, the two speakers would produce about 3dB more "loudness" than the single speaker.

The Advents, if rated via IEC standards, would be 6 ohm speakers. A pair of 6 ohm speakers = 3 ohm load. Most consumer amps, including yours, are at best rated for a 4 ohm load. The harder your drive them (the louder), the more stress you are putting on the amp. Your Sansui will probably acquit itself quite decently against this challenge, but just keep in mind that you are asking it to perform at/slightly beyond its limits.
 
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Thanks 62caddy,
So is 85 watts going into one 4 ohm speaker more power than 65 watts going into two 8 ohm speakers?

Two 8 ohm speakers wired in parallel results in a 4 ohm load.

Keep in mind the amount of power actually being delivered depends on the volume control setting.
 
When trying once to explain ohms watts volts amps….
I used an example of a garden hose and the water flowing out of it.

Water flowing being the amps, thumb on the end controlling the flow, ohms. Water pressure the volts. Watts would be the work produced by the water’s action.
 
Thanks 62caddy,
So is 85 watts going into one 4 ohm speaker more power than 65 watts going into two 8 ohm speakers?

Well, yes....85 is more than 65.

But that's not really the pertinent question. The amp can deliver a maximum of 85 watts into a 4 ohm load...regardless of whether that load is comprised of one or two speakers (or a 4 ohm resistor, for that matter).
 
When trying once to explain ohms watts volts amps….
I used an example of a garden hose and the water flowing out of it.

Water flowing being the amps, thumb on the end controlling the flow, ohms. Water pressure the volts. Watts would be the work produced by the water’s action.

Best, easy, explanation for the non-technical folks.
 
Also consider the speakers are splitting the power. Into a single 8 ohm speaker it will make a maximum of 65 watts. Into a pair of 8 ohms wired in parallel it makes 85, but each speaker is getting 42.5 of those watts.
 
Wow what a great bunch of responses.

I should say that I can get quite adequate air moving with the volume at around 2 for the listening area this system is in, @ 3 you are right there in it. above that the room starts to react negatively to the sound .pressure. In that I gave beer drinking sometime back I can't really enjoy really loud music in small spaces.

These are the words I was hoping to hear

"Voltage would be unchanged (theoretically), assuming same setting on the volume control, so each of the 4 ohm speakers would get the same amount of power that a single 8 ohm speaker would get. BTW, the two speakers would produce about 3dB more "loudness" than the single speaker." Spark1

3db, how significant is that?

Thanks to everyone, especially Spark1
Ric
 
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Wow what a great bunch of responses.

I should say that I can get quite adequate air moving with the volume at around 2 for the listening area this system is in, @ 3 you are right there in it. above that the room starts to react negatively to the sound .pressure. In that I gave beer drinking sometime back I can't really enjoy really loud music in small spaces.

These are the words I was hoping to hear

"Voltage would be unchanged (theoretically), assuming same setting on the volume control, so each of the 4 ohm speakers would get the same amount of power that a single 8 ohm speaker would get. BTW, the two speakers would produce about 3dB more "loudness" than the single speaker." Spark1

3db, how significant is that?

Thanks to everyone, especially Spark1
Ric

Note that I edited my response, but after you quoted it in your reply..

I originally referred to "each of the 4 ohm speakers". This is of course incorrect. In my example, I was referring to two 8 ohm speakers, wired in parallel (as would be one way of stacking them). Together, they create a 4 ohm load...and would indeed each get the same power as would be delivered to a single 8 ohm speaker (to the point at which the amp becomes unable to deliver current on a linear basis).
 
One of my favorite ohms law illustrations-
View attachment 2543760

I like it too, even thought it doesn't do a good job at illustrating the situation of reduced resistance and imperfect power (voltage) supply.

I remember years ago when trying to figure out some of the basics being confused by the difference between Ohm's Law and rated amplifier output into lower resistance loads.
 
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1 dB is the smallest change in loudness the human ear can detect. 3 dB is a noticeable change in SPL but not overly dramatic. Output power must be doubled for every 3 dB increase in acoustic energy from the speakers. Ie 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 watts for increases of 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 dB

All that can be said is that the amplifier will develop slightly more output into a 4 ohm load but that doesn’t take into account speaker sensitivity. Only if identical 8 ohm speakers are used, then yes the maximum loudness the system would theoretically be slightly higher with two pair of speakers than one pair - but only very slight.
 
One other way to look at is " conductance." Conductance is measured on Mho(s)
So 4 ohms conducts twice as much as 8 ohm's. Also, 4 ohms is closer to a short circuit than 8 ohm's.
 
But, all math aside, double Advents are a famous combination and be it surface area or whatever, can sound really impressive.
 
But, all math aside, double Advents are a famous combination and be it surface area or whatever, can sound really impressive.

Yes they are quite Impressive. I have been a Advent fan for 50 yrs but just recently have had two sets to stack in parallel .

What I have been trying to get at through this thread is, am I getting more out of my amp. using the stacked in parallel vs connecting two sets of speakers to amp output and running a+b?
 
BTW, the two speakers would produce about 3dB more "loudness" than the single speaker.

More like +6 dB ideally (+ 3 dB due to twice the input power and another +3 dB due to twice the diaphragm area), reasonable coherence due to close proximity of the two sound sources and sufficient wave length provided. In case of stacked speakers that should work out pretty well at least in the bass range.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Different question, and the answer depends upon how the speaker terminals are wired.

Most of the time, A and B are wired so that they are in parallel. But sometimes the manufacturer places them in series, to reduce the load on the amp.

If they are in parallel, there is no electrical difference between doubling up both pairs of speakers on one set of terminals vs connecting one pair via A and one pair via B.

Simple answers, assuming speakers in parallel (no matter how you achieve it):
  • Impedance goes down. Two eight ohm speakers in parallel = 4 ohm load. Two six ohm speakers in parallel = 3 ohm load.
  • Power therefore goes up (because more current is drawn, as a function of reduced impedance).
  • At low output levels, power comes close to doubling into the halved load. As you move closer to maximum output, the amp is less and less able to do so. At max output, power is only 40% higher into the doubled load (which is actually pretty good performance, relative to many other receivers).
  • The power is spread equally across the pairs of speakers.
  • The additional power translates into increased SPL (sound pressure level)
 
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