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Old class A vs New class D.

noobydoo

Active Member
Hello all. So I just watched a review of a Lepai class D amp. This little thing supposedly puts out 160 watts into 4 ohms with low distortion, all at the price of a night out on town for 2. Should I be tossing out my Luxman 5m21 , which is only rated at 100wpc into 8 ohms to make room for a pair of these? Discuss :)
 
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From a strictly theoretical perspective (Ohm's Law), the 160w @ 4 ohms Lepai will only put out 80w @ 8 ohms; however the 100 wpc @ 8 ohms Luxman should put out substantially more power into a 4 ohm load. If the Lepai's are that cheap, you could buy them and experiment, but I sincerely doubt the Luxman is going anywhere.
 
I'd guess it's based on this chip: http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resou...df/jcr:content/translations/en.DM00044235.pdf

Note that you get 160 watts at 10% THD into (probably) 4 ohms. At 1% THD it's 125 watts into 4 ohms, so to achieve typical hi-fi THD ratings into 8 ohms is probably somewhere around 40 or 50 watts per channel. Or less.

But, as @botrytis pointed out, the class D topology is much more efficient than class A/B or class A.

Class A is notoriously inefficient; roughly 70% of the input power is emitted as waste heat rather than driving speakers. That's why class A amps have huge heat sinks, massive power supplies, and run hot for relatively low output wattage.

Class A/B is better -- roughly 35% of the input power is emitted as waste heat rather than driving speakers.

Class D is better yet -- only about 10% of the input power is emitted as waste heat. The rest goes into powering the speakers. That means relatively little energy needs to be dissipated via heat sinks, so class D amps can be much smaller than equivalent class A or A/B amps whilst producing high output for their size. Because so little waste heat is generated, class D circuits can be physically small and easily packaged into integrated circuits, which is why we have class D "chip" amps.

There are also class D amps made with discrete circuitry, for those who like discrete circuitry.
 
Hello all. So I just watched a review of a Lepai class D amp. This little thing supposedly puts out 160 watts into 4 ohms with low distortion, all at the price of a night out on town for 2. Should I be tossing out my Luxman 5m21 , which is only rated at 100wpc into 8 ohms to make room for a pair of these? Discuss :)

Which Lepai amp was reviewed?
 
Which Lepai amp was reviewed?
Which Lepai amp was reviewed?
Lepai lp 160. I'm obviously being provocotive. This arose out of a discussion I had with a friend who recently purchased a samsung home theater system that purportedly has 1000 watts system power. I tried to explain to him the concept that all watts are not created equal but it fell on deaf ears. (pun intended)
 
You said Class D amps, now you are putting qualifiers on it. Which is it?

Some of the Chinese chip amps do quite well and lift way above what they cost.

Jes saying.

Hey! I said nothing about chip or class type. I have an SMSL SA-50 (50WPC@4 Ohms) chip amp and have recommended Lepai 2020's to several people for computer based systems. I would expect the ARC to put out the advertised watts at very low distortion levels. I don't expect that from the Lepai.
 
Chip amps are interesting. Much of their sound quality depends on the power supply, and the filtering system that comes after the output devices. There is a filter system that needs to deal with the switching distortion created by the output devices. How intrusive that is, effects the final sound of the amplifier.

A majority of the cost of a good amplifier is located in the power supply. The inexpensive chip amps will use a basic switching power supply that is typically known to be noisy. The higher quality Class D amps will use a conventional power supply like the one shown in the Audio Research chip amplifier above, and a power supply like that costs real money. Also the chassis of that amplifier is expensive, and adds to the price tag. But a conventional power supply needs room to be laid out, and so larger chassis are needed. There are companies building higher quality switching power supplies, but they are not dirt cheap.

Some folks here think that the commercial or pro audio Class D amps are the proper implementation of the design, and have a price structure that is reasonable. Crown makes amps that meet this criteria for instance, and are probably a better example of the technology than the Lepai. In the realm of boutique hif fi, an amplifier like the D Sonic or Wyred4Sound are examples of what is possible if you spend more money.

The one thing about inexpensive Class D amplifiers is that the chips are current limiting. They put out their max power at a 4 ohm rating, and less power into 8 ohms, so for many home speakers they are not as much power as you expect them to be, as many home speakers are an 8 ohm load. But when you drop below 4 ohms you are hard on the circuit because the output chips and power supply are not spec'd to pass that much current or the chips are not heat sinked well enough to dissipate additional heat, at least in the cheaper amps like the Lepai. The better ones can do it within reason, but they still won't drive the wicked low impedance loads of some speakers. However, in todays audio world speakers do not have the nasty low impedance dips or phase shifts in their crossover that taxed the affordable "high power" amps of the 80's ans 90's.

Class D can only improve in sound, and it has from its inception. There are excellent Class D amps on the market now. But they aren't the ones that cost $50. Although there is a group of hobbyists out there that have reportedly gotten great sound with a little DIY project based on the TPA3116 board and high efficiency speakers. So there are no absolutes about how much money has to be spent, or what the cut off point is for good Class D amplification. It is like anything in audio, do your homework, understand what your preferences and priorities are, find a candidate and spend your money and takes your chances. Audio is a journey!

Regards
Mister Pig
 
You said Class D amps, now you are putting qualifiers on it. Which is it?

Some of the Chinese chip amps do quite well and lift way above what they cost.

Jes saying.
If I'm not mistaken, due to the ohm rating, your class D amps would be 80w @ 8ohm while your Luxman is 100w @ 8 ohm... I'll take the luxman off your hands for you...lol
The amp in my
If I'm not mistaken, due to the ohm rating, your class D amps would be 80w @ 8ohm while your Luxman is 100w @ 8 ohm... I'll take the luxman off your hands for you...lol
Chip amps are interesting. Much of their sound quality depends on the power supply, and the filtering system that comes after the output devices. There is a filter system that needs to deal with the switching distortion created by the output devices. How intrusive that is, effects the final sound of the amplifier.

A majority of the cost of a good amplifier is located in the power supply. The inexpensive chip amps will use a basic switching power supply that is typically known to be noisy. The higher quality Class D amps will use a conventional power supply like the one shown in the Audio Research chip amplifier above, and a power supply like that costs real money. Also the chassis of that amplifier is expensive, and adds to the price tag. But a conventional power supply needs room to be laid out, and so larger chassis are needed. There are companies building higher quality switching power supplies, but they are not dirt cheap.

Some folks here think that the commercial or pro audio Class D amps are the proper implementation of the design, and have a price structure that is reasonable. Crown makes amps that meet this criteria for instance, and are probably a better example of the technology than the Lepai. In the realm of boutique hif fi, an amplifier like the D Sonic or Wyred4Sound are examples of what is possible if you spend more money.

The one thing about inexpensive Class D amplifiers is that the chips are current limiting. They put out their max power at a 4 ohm rating, and less power into 8 ohms, so for many home speakers they are not as much power as you expect them to be, as many home speakers are an 8 ohm load. But when you drop below 4 ohms you are hard on the circuit because the output chips and power supply are not spec'd to pass that much current or the chips are not heat sinked well enough to dissipate additional heat, at least in the cheaper amps like the Lepai. The better ones can do it within reason, but they still won't drive the wicked low impedance loads of some speakers. However, in todays audio world speakers do not have the nasty low impedance dips or phase shifts in their crossover that taxed the affordable "high power" amps of the 80's ans 90's.

Class D can only improve in sound, and it has from its inception. There are excellent Class D amps on the market now. But they aren't the ones that cost $50. Although there is a group of hobbyists out there that have reportedly gotten great sound with a little DIY project based on the TPA3116 board and high efficiency speakers. So there are no absolutes about how much money has to be spent, or what the cut off point is for good Class D amplification. It is like anything in audio, do your homework, understand what your preferences and priorities are, find a candidate and spend your money and takes your chances. Audio is a journey!

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Very well put. As I stated earlier I was being somewhat provocative and was hoping to start a discussion. Mission accoplished :). None of my vintage gear is going anywhere, although I may consider adding a couple of class D(T) for a spare room system or recommend one to a friend who has limited space or budget that still wants decent sound.
 
That’s a very good and concise technical description Mr. Pig.

I will need to read that a few times to begin to understand it.

I have heard some terrific sounding class D but the price is very high so learning more about less expensive will be a benefit.

These are class D, MBL Corona lineup which is supposed to be a more affordable integrated.

I heard some of the MBL class D last year at Axpona and they were fantastic but the amazing speakers played a major part of that too.

https://www.mbl.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/MBL_HFN-1.pdf
 
Class A is notoriously inefficient; roughly 70% of the input power is emitted as waste heat rather than driving speakers. That's why class A amps have huge heat sinks, massive power supplies, and run hot for relatively low output wattage.

I can fully attest to this--I own 4 Krell KMA 160 monoblocks. With a mere 160w @ 8 ohms power rating, each one weighs just under 100 lbs and draws 8A of current at idle, and if you let them idle for an hour, you are ready to cook eggs for breakfast. The main power supply caps are the size of beer/soda cans and the transformer is like a brick. The advantages; however, are that they each double-down to 1280w of output into a 1 ohm load (as per the factory manual), and can be tweaked to operate below 1 ohm--basically arc weld with them.
 
Note that you get 160 watts at 10% THD into (probably) 4 ohms. At 1% THD it's 125 watts into 4 ohms, so to achieve typical hi-fi THD ratings into 8 ohms is probably somewhere around 40 or 50 watts per channel. Or less.

I wish they would just rate these things like they used to, stating reasonable (say under 1%) THD into 8 and 4 ohm loads and 20-20k bandwidth. You have to be really careful these days trying to figure out what they are leaving out when stating specs.

Seems we went backwards in that respect.

That said, I do use and enjoy my Lepai 2020+ daily in the kitchen.
 
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This is an internal pic of an Audio Research DS450 monoblock CHIP AMP. I would put this up against ANY other amp in sound and delivery quality.

A switching amplifier with a linear power supply? 55lbs. $5K.
Interesting.

OP, I strongly doubt that a 2lb, $100 PCM amp is going to do anything better than your old Luxman. But it is kinda neat.
 
Hey! I said nothing about chip or class type. I have an SMSL SA-50 (50WPC@4 Ohms) chip amp and have recommended Lepai 2020's.

The lepai 2020 is a nice little budget amp definitely would get my recommendation. Greatest sounding amp? No but it's certainly a good one for someone getting their feet wet on a low budget. I've considered using it to power remote speakers and connecting it to the preamp on my Sa-8500II or Marantz 2230 with an rca splitter. Either that or I'll give it to my friend along with a spare preamp if he ends up getting a nice turntable .
 
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