On properly sealing Khorns

[Rudy81]

I have decided to tackle this much discussed topic yet again since I seem to be slower than most and just didn't get it. I hope this topic will help another Khorn owner who may have taken the recommendations with a grain of salt.

I purchased my Khorns, used, almost three years ago. Until then I had Belles and La Scalas. I was very familiar with the bass they could produce, but was new to the Khorn. I appealed for help on the forum after first setting up the Khorns since they seemed to have considerably less bass than did my Belles or LaS. Everyone chimed in and said, "make sure the bass bin is sealed well" against the wall. I eventually built a nice set of very heavy and very sturdy false corners since my room has some limitations at the corners, and I wanted the ability to turn the Khorns and move the sweet spot further back. These corners worked very well and I did what I thought was a good job of "sealing" the tailboards. The bass did improve considerably, but I did, on occassion need my sub to supplement the Khorns when listening to bass intensive music. I use my system for both 2-channel listening and 7.1 channel movies. Overall, I was satisified, but always wondered why the bass on the Khorns was not quite as punchy as my Belles or LaS.

I recently stumbled upon this thread http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/831251.aspx concerning sealing the backs to mirror the look of the anniversary Khorns that come with sealed backs. I originally thought I would try to do this surgical procedure. However, after researching some old Dope from Hope articles, and many threads on this forum, I came to the conclusion that a properly sealed Khorns would sound as good or better than the surgically altered "sealed" model....which, would be a time consuming undertaking not to mention putting holes in my bass bins. So, I opted instead to make sure that my Khorns were properly sealed.

While working with my false corners and a flashlight, I noticed that light was leaking along parts of the tail boards. I had stuck the flashlight near the very corner and could see some light escaping from the front side of the tail board. ???? My thought was that I had not done a good job of sealing the Khorns, and certailnly if light can escape, so could air pressure waves. I decided to use the pipe insulation others have mentioned on this forum in order to ensure and tight seal and to allow for the imperfections on my corners to be filled. After re-sealing the Khorns and ensuring light did not get through the seal, I set my system back up.

This is the part that kills me. I should have done this from the start, two plus years ago!!!!! I had no idea the Khorns could go this low! Just for fun I turned on my sub as I used to before, and I could not tell if it was on or not. The bass is out of this world and has made everything I listen to that much better, more fuller and complete.

Bottom line, I was stupid for not taking this sealing thing more seriously and ensuring I had a darn near perfect seal. The difference is simply dramatic. I thought I would re-visit the topic in case there is another poor soul with these magnificent speakers that is missing out on what they can do.

My thanks to those who contributed to this issue in so many other threads.

 

[silversport]

well I need to thank you...I have had my K'Horns for over a year and they sound great BUT...I don't have mine sealed into the corners...I think they sound so good I don't need a better seal...I think I need to revisit this and give them a proper seal with the corners...
Thanks again,
Bill

 

[Rudy81]

Bill,
I hope this helps you and that if you did not have a perfect seal, you will experience the thrill of finding some new "lows" in your Khorns. In particular, I use Billy Cobham's album "Warning" to test low frequency response. Find some of your music that you know has low frequencies and do a before and after listening. My "before" was two years worth of not knowing any better. The "after" is like having a new set of speakers.

Now I can honestly say that the Khorns are superior to my Belles and La Scala's. You may visit the thread mentioned above in the Klipsch forum for more information from other Klipsch addicts.

Best of luck.

 

[Zygmo]

Yes. In my opinion, people who knock the bass response of KHorns have been listening to unsealed units. To me, unsealed Khorns vs sealed ones is like comparing speakers out of phase to speakers in phase. Well setup KHorn systems should not need subs.
Also. I personally don't recommend using small amps with them. I know 2 watts will move them, but a big amp really wakes them up. I have always said...put your big money on speakers, and your next on amps.
Pink Floyd likes lotts of watts.

 

[soundbound]

Great advice and thank you for sharing. I used the flashlight method too a few years ago while placing them in room corners. My top cabinets were off, because I’d been restoring them which made it easy, I turned the room lights off, and worked on the seals and positioning the bottom bass cabinets until no light shined out were they touched the walls, then placed their tops on. It works great. It gets them perfectly positioned in the corners too including the air tight fit.

 

[soundbound]

Yes. In my opinion, people who knock the bass response of KHorns have been listening to unsealed units. To me, unsealed Khorns vs sealed ones is like comparing speakers out of phase to speakers in phase. Well setup KHorn systems should not need subs.
Also. I personally don't recommend using small amps with them. I know 2 watts will move them, but a big amp really wakes them up. I have always said...put your big money on speakers, and your next on amps.
Pink Floyd likes lotts of watts.

+1

 

[lissenup]

+1

+2

 

[DEFTECHY]

Yes. In my opinion, people who knock the bass response of KHorns have been listening to unsealed units. To me, unsealed Khorns vs sealed ones is like comparing speakers out of phase to speakers in phase. Well setup KHorn systems should not need subs.
Also. I personally don't recommend using small amps with them. I know 2 watts will move them, but a big amp really wakes them up. I have always said...put your big money on speakers, and your next on amps.
Pink Floyd likes lotts of watts.

K-horns and most any other speaker can benefit from a good sub(s), all depends on what type of music or movies you listen to. K-horns have great bass but they are only rated to ~33hz... there is a LOT more bass below that freq, especially in movies or modern alternative & electronic music. A good quality sub freq will go down to the lower 20hz or even into the teens.

Everyone likes/needs are different so a blanket statement such as khorns should not need subs doesnt apply to everyone or every room set up. Ive owned 2 pairs of K-horns and they benefit from even mid level subs for most music and definitely filled in nulls in the room.

 

[bruno80918]

+2

+3

 

[avguytx]

Ok, so are you + guys above saying you agree with the backs being enclosed? If so, did you do your own?

 

[lissenup]

Ok, so are you + guys above saying you agree with the backs being enclosed? If so, did you do your own?

No, I don’t think we mean enclosing the back of an older khorn. At least I (+2) don’t mean that. I’m agreeing to properly sealing the khorn into your corner, whether that corner be natural corners in your room or fabricated false corners for your khorn to nestle into.

 

[Zygmo]

K-horns and most any other speaker can benefit from a good sub(s), all depends on what type of music or movies you listen to. K-horns have great bass but they are only rated to ~33hz... there is a LOT more bass below that freq, especially in movies or modern alternative & electronic music. A good quality sub freq will go down to the lower 20hz or even into the teens.

Everyone likes/needs are different so a blanket statement such as khorns should not need subs doesnt apply to everyone or every room set up. Ive owned 2 pairs of K-horns and they benefit from even mid level subs for most music and definitely filled in nulls in the room.

Of course. I did say IMO. I mostly like rock music, and the bass in that system was outstanding. The room was 25ft by 30ft, which felt like a virtually perfect size. I did not experiment much with the subs: as I said, with the amps setup like they were...they could barely be heard especially when I sealed the cabinets to the walls. I did (and do) listen at high levels, and I think KHorns excel when cranked with big amps. You WILL find any sheetrock that's not firmly attached talking back to you. I laid the walls with 8' x 16" by 6" blocks on the concrete floor and hired the sheetrock hung. I helped apply the glue to make sure the it was well applied, which held up good, but did have to touch up a vibration or two on the ceiling sheetrock.
Talking about vibration. With my listening room now 7 ft by 14 ft, foam backed 2 x 4 walls and ceiling joists, and chipboard floors, the 15in woofers built into the ceiling makes chasing down vibrations a chore! Has surprisingly good bass though, considering. Sort of like sitting inside the speakers! LOL

 

[Zygmo]

Of course. I did say IMO. I mostly like rock music, and the bass in that system was outstanding. The room was 25ft by 30ft, which felt like a virtually perfect size. I did not experiment much with the subs: as I said, with the amps setup like they were...they could barely be heard especially when I sealed the cabinets to the walls. I did (and do) listen at high levels, and I think KHorns excel when cranked with big amps. You WILL find any sheetrock that's not firmly attached talking back to you. I laid the walls with 8' x 16" by 6" blocks on the concrete floor and hired the sheetrock hung. I helped apply the glue to make sure the it was well applied, which held up good, but did have to touch up a vibration or two on the ceiling sheetrock.
Talking about vibration. With my listening room now 7 ft by 14 ft, foam backed 2 x 4 walls and ceiling joists, and chipboard floors, the 15in woofers built into the ceiling makes chasing down vibrations a chore! Has surprisingly good bass though, considering. Sort of like sitting inside the speakers! LOL

 

[DEFTECHY]

Was just replying to the "khorns should not need subs" thing, I agree they have very good bass, but they only go down to 33hz, there is a lot of bass below that freq, I also prefer rock music, classic or modern rock will benefit from a good sub too.

I had 4 Khorns in a basement recently with perfect corners, they sounded pretty much the same without a perfect seal as long as they are pushed tight to the corners with no obstructions or windows etc on the sides. I did seal them to the walls with pipe foam just to be sure but didnt notice much of a difference in the bass levels. I also listen louder than most with big high current amps trying to recreate the A-list rock band concerts Ive seen over the years. Mid level SVS sealed subs (2) made a noticeable improvement, especially in the areas of the room that had nulls in the bass which most rooms can have.

As with anything in this hobby, bass levels for each person will be different, some say lascala/heresy have plenty of bass, but they drop off around 50hz so there is definitely some missing freq, but if the owner doesnt know better or is happy with that bass that is all that matters to them.

 

[avguytx]

So if a person has good corners where they can seal fairly well, at what point does enclosing backs make them "better"? Some seem to swear by enclosing them and others more on making a good seal and calling it good. Is it the amount of space on the wall that they'll be on than constitutes enclosing so the listener isn't so close? Or...

 

[Gigantic]

As with anything in this hobby, bass levels for each person will be different, some say lascala/heresy have plenty of bass, but they drop off around 50hz so there is definitely some missing freq, but if the owner doesnt know better or is happy with that bass that is all that matters to them.

My LaScala has plenty of bass and I’m willing to die on that hill. It doesn’t even need corners!

 

[soundbound]

So if a person has good corners where they can seal fairly well, at what point does enclosing backs make them "better"? Some seem to swear by enclosing them and others more on making a good seal and calling it good. Is it the amount of space on the wall that they'll be on than constitutes enclosing so the listener isn't so close? Or..

If a person has good corners where they can seal fairly well is best, then enclosing their backs won’t make them better in that their ideal situation that they’re originally designed for is to be in corners using the walls to extend their bass horns.

 

[Dave MacKay]

My LaScala has plenty of bass and I’m willing to die on that hill. It doesn’t even need corners!
View attachment 3038761

I don't want to hijack this thread but ... @Gigantic, I need to know how you got bass all the way past 30Hz with your La Scalas.

Here's the best I was able to do with my La Scalas:

As you can see, my La Scalas drop off well before yours.

I modded my speakers by:

• laminating panels to the cabinet to address resonances
• replaced K77M tweeters and lenses with DE120s and SMAHL lenses
• replaced networks with DSP (crossing at 400 Hz and 4500 Hz)
• placed on ~4" risers

Is your improved LF due solely to DJK's port mod, or is there more to the secret sauce?

 

[Gigantic]

I don't want to hijack this thread but ... I need to know how you got bass all the way past 30Hz with your La Scala.

Is your improved LF due solely to DJK's port mod, or is there more to the secret sauce?

there’s more. I based my work on the DJK port mods, but I increased the upper cabinet volume by nearly 100% and “ported” it with a 15” passive radiator. Including the doghouse, its volume is somewhere in the ballpark of 9-10 cubic feet, which enables it to extend so low. I actually had to remove all of the weight, 2/3 of a kilo, from the passives, because there was too much bass. The build thread is here.

 

[Bushikan]

I sealed my KHorns with both pipe foam, on the horizontal elements, and wide, rubber garage door seals on the tailbacks (19th-century house is very out of square). My room isn’t perfect. Three of the four corner walls don’t extend uninterrupted all the way to to 4’. So I’m definitely missing something.

That said, I get pretty astounding, chest-rattling bass on a lot of material without subs, with my McIntosh MC275 MKVI. The room: 15’ W x 20’ L x 10’ H (speakers on long wall). I think the horsehair plaster over what amounts to solid 6” square timber walls (laid horizontally) helps tremendously. OTOH, if my wife (and $$$) would allow for a sub (or Jubilees), I’m sure I’d realize what I’m missing. (If I had Jubilees, I’d seal them to the corners, too.) Oddly, a lot of Klipsch dealers pull sealed Jubilees out from the corners.

I’m skeptical of the newer KHorns with sealed backs, and the claim that they don’t need corners. I think PWK would have gone that closed-back route eventually while he was alive if he believed it was an equally viable or better solution to that of sealing Klipschorns to actual room corners or to solidly built false corners (which he had in his own listening room). Obviously, he didn’t; and the sealed-back solution had to occur to him.

Also: every time I’ve auditioned the new-and-improved sealed-back KHorns, their bass has sounded thin to me. And they’re always dragged out into the room a few feet to prove they can stand anywhere. YMMV.