Opinion Piece - Vintage Manuals and the Death of Vintage Hi-Fi (Please Read)
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Damage
Super Member
I'm the next best thing. The Senior SysAdmin for a large hosting company Marketing takes, and I have to give... ;-) I can't tell you how many crappy sites use gigs of space for junk...
I think these are hand-me-down scans. And your point becomes very valid in a hurry in this case. However, doing actual scans in hi-res and cropping them when doing so is easy. Fold outs are a PITA. And for that, nothing beats an original. Why many manufacturers didn't do those with grid co-ordinates is beyond me. But when they do have them, it becomes real easy to print and use.
Rick
New Member
Hello everybody,
Glenn is a valueable customer of ours and i consider him a personal friend. He sent me an email with a link to the message he posted as he wanted me to see what he wrote. He may have been prompted to write the message after seeing the blurb I recently put across the top of all our site pages. He did mention that he was biting his lips while writing... I guess meaning he wanted to be careful not to just let it fly and in the process, say things in such a way as to inflame a bunch of folks.
I have often thought of posting a similar type message on this or other audio forums, but never did because I knew it would just sound like sour grapes, etc. But since Glenn has posted a message saying some of what I feel, I think it might be a good time to post a reply from my perspective.
I do understand exactly why many folks go to the "seemingly free" or cheapest source to find the info they desire or perhaps even just partial info they want. But I also know that in the vast majority of cases, they are getting a sub-par product and sometimes, just plain lousy.... but it was "free".
I "accidently" got started doing manuals in 2001, after doing a massive vintage audio gear buying project on eBay. For 2-3 years, I found the vast majority of folks who did business we me were THANKFUL and SAID SO when I was able to supply what they wanted. Since then, I have witnessed a TOTAL TURN-AROUND in many people's attitude when they interact with us. Now, the vast majority do not express thanks and do not seem appreciative at all. Thankfully some are very nice people and say very nice things. Some I consider as warm friends via our various interactions.
But the plain facts are that many are actually hostile or bitch about the smallest of inconveniences or that the info wasn't presented to them in precisely they way they expect. Or they are mad that we couldn't guess in advance that they want to use paypal, or mail a check, or that we need to know which they want.... user manual or service manual. Jeesh.. why is it that we need to know more than just "manual".... or whatever...
This turn around has happened concurrently with the internet providing a means for a huge proliferation of audio groups of various kinds, including AK. I have watched over the last 3-4 years as more and more folks are looking on one audio group after another looking for a free manual scan to be emailed to them.
I'm a member of many yahoo audio groups and own/moderate a couple. I don't respond a lot as I'm just too busy. Some times I see someone asking (or begging) for a manual and might even mention that they have been looking for a long time. I have responded to a few of them and said we have it. Price frequently $8.00 - $15.00 printed and mailed to their door. You know what happens in most cases? 90% ignore the message, don't bother to say thanks or anything else. Sometimes I see them 2-3 weeks later posting a message saying they finally found it free somewhere or they finally found someone to send them a few scanned pages via email. It makes me think these people's time is worth nothing to them. And... what ever happened to common civility? The older I get, the more I think our culture is headed down the dumper.
I've nothing against AK at all. In fact, I was one of the first members. I've never been much active here because of trying to absorb and make available 10's of thousands of manuals if someone wants them. Plus, the past four years I have had a lot of elderly parent problems eating up much time and resources. But regardless.... another reason I haven't participated a lot is because of the very noticeable attitude displayed by many (here and elsewhere) that manuals vendors and eBay sellers are some kind of blood suckers. Sometimes it sounds as if people are willing to go to any length just so long as no money goes to the blood suckers. But maybe that's just my warped perspective.
When AK members put up the 2000 Pioneer manuals scans site, it had a very noticeable impact on our business which was already a marginable proposition at best. The idea that it is simply club members sharing is a hoot. It takes no effort at all to find them and no effort to join, so in effect, they are available to anybody with an internet connection, free for the taking. Plus there is the request for donations for "free" manuals.
Most other free manuals sites are not usually providing them at their expense. They acquire most of the scans from users who send them in and the site provider receives google advertising revenue from the traffic and/or asks for donations. So who is supporting who here? I suppose it's all a catch 22 situation, but the result is that most folks are getting poor quality and/or much missing information in the process.
Anybody who honestly thinks manuals vendors are getting rich, simply has not thought through the process. In fact, I never started it thinking that it would be a great way to make a living. When I first started trying to put something on the web, I posted this article which explains why I personally wanted to have good printed literature for my own personal stuff.
our site /articles/whybuymanuals.htm
It was true for me then and true for me now. I personally am "stunned" that so many vintage audio collectors do not feel the same way.
I know there are tons of very well-to-do vintage audio collectors with beautiful homes, gorgeous gear collections, etc, yet many still go for the freebie online scans. Why is it that so many are willing to be satisfied with crappy scans or sub-par printouts? I find it tough to take my computer monitor to the reading room (toliet) and it doesn't feel good on my chest if on the living room floor or couch. But again, maybe that's just my warped perspective.
The member who previously posted his .02 about storage of manuals costing nothing... has no clue. Anybody care to guess how many 10's and 10's of thousands of dollars it would cost to (high quality) digitize a 100,000 manuals? What about spending the time and money to digitize all those thousands of manuals that nobody will probably ever want but need to be kept in case someone might?
OH.. and where did all those original printed manuals come from that are to be digitized. Were they just another of the "zero cost" things in the no or low cost digital solution? Even if all that could be done at zero cost, storage would not be free or even low cost. One would need many computers, many hard drives, thousands of DVD's and back up copies and all that periodically being replaced to insure against data loss. A lot of logistical problems present themselves as soon as you move from having a few hundred manuals (in whatever form) to having 10's or 100's of thousands.
In our case, we currently have 40 4-drawer filing cabinets of original printed manuals. Yes, that is 160 file drawers crammed full of original printed literature. On our budget, it is absolutely impossible for us to scan them and get rid of the printed manuals in my lifetime. It is simply out of the question for us. So, how much space is required to house 40 filing cabinets? Is that space free? Does it have a mortgage, have rent, fire insurance, business taxes, lighting/heating/cooling expenses, etc. In our case, it requires a whole second house up the street from our home, with a mortage and all the other mentioned things.
The current prevailing attitude among almost all audio group's members seems to be that everyone should drop what they are doing so they can scan all their literature and make it available to all comers. I mean, isn't that what nice people do to help other nice people?
Glenn doesn't think that is a good idea and will reap unintended results. In my case, I heartily agree. I believe it is very short-sighted position for the audio community as a whole. I expect that AK's and other sites advocating free scans will be the death of manuals vendors who are trying to really put out a quality product.
The internet is becoming polluted with so-called manuals vendors but we all know that many are semi-scam operations. Lots of flat-rate price PDF sites do not actually have the product even though they take your money. Lots of people who used to sell on eBay are no longer there. Even the biggest manuals seller on eBay over the past 4 years or so is currently listed as "Not a Registered User". He may get back on, but then, he was taken off earlier this year for a week or two. Perhaps it will happen again. I think it's in "ALL" or best interest to support honest sellers trying to provide honest products.
That's my .02....
Glenn is a valueable customer of ours and i consider him a personal friend. He sent me an email with a link to the message he posted as he wanted me to see what he wrote. He may have been prompted to write the message after seeing the blurb I recently put across the top of all our site pages. He did mention that he was biting his lips while writing... I guess meaning he wanted to be careful not to just let it fly and in the process, say things in such a way as to inflame a bunch of folks.
I have often thought of posting a similar type message on this or other audio forums, but never did because I knew it would just sound like sour grapes, etc. But since Glenn has posted a message saying some of what I feel, I think it might be a good time to post a reply from my perspective.
I do understand exactly why many folks go to the "seemingly free" or cheapest source to find the info they desire or perhaps even just partial info they want. But I also know that in the vast majority of cases, they are getting a sub-par product and sometimes, just plain lousy.... but it was "free".
I "accidently" got started doing manuals in 2001, after doing a massive vintage audio gear buying project on eBay. For 2-3 years, I found the vast majority of folks who did business we me were THANKFUL and SAID SO when I was able to supply what they wanted. Since then, I have witnessed a TOTAL TURN-AROUND in many people's attitude when they interact with us. Now, the vast majority do not express thanks and do not seem appreciative at all. Thankfully some are very nice people and say very nice things. Some I consider as warm friends via our various interactions.
But the plain facts are that many are actually hostile or bitch about the smallest of inconveniences or that the info wasn't presented to them in precisely they way they expect. Or they are mad that we couldn't guess in advance that they want to use paypal, or mail a check, or that we need to know which they want.... user manual or service manual. Jeesh.. why is it that we need to know more than just "manual".... or whatever...
This turn around has happened concurrently with the internet providing a means for a huge proliferation of audio groups of various kinds, including AK. I have watched over the last 3-4 years as more and more folks are looking on one audio group after another looking for a free manual scan to be emailed to them.
I'm a member of many yahoo audio groups and own/moderate a couple. I don't respond a lot as I'm just too busy. Some times I see someone asking (or begging) for a manual and might even mention that they have been looking for a long time. I have responded to a few of them and said we have it. Price frequently $8.00 - $15.00 printed and mailed to their door. You know what happens in most cases? 90% ignore the message, don't bother to say thanks or anything else. Sometimes I see them 2-3 weeks later posting a message saying they finally found it free somewhere or they finally found someone to send them a few scanned pages via email. It makes me think these people's time is worth nothing to them. And... what ever happened to common civility? The older I get, the more I think our culture is headed down the dumper.
I've nothing against AK at all. In fact, I was one of the first members. I've never been much active here because of trying to absorb and make available 10's of thousands of manuals if someone wants them. Plus, the past four years I have had a lot of elderly parent problems eating up much time and resources. But regardless.... another reason I haven't participated a lot is because of the very noticeable attitude displayed by many (here and elsewhere) that manuals vendors and eBay sellers are some kind of blood suckers. Sometimes it sounds as if people are willing to go to any length just so long as no money goes to the blood suckers. But maybe that's just my warped perspective.
When AK members put up the 2000 Pioneer manuals scans site, it had a very noticeable impact on our business which was already a marginable proposition at best. The idea that it is simply club members sharing is a hoot. It takes no effort at all to find them and no effort to join, so in effect, they are available to anybody with an internet connection, free for the taking. Plus there is the request for donations for "free" manuals.
Most other free manuals sites are not usually providing them at their expense. They acquire most of the scans from users who send them in and the site provider receives google advertising revenue from the traffic and/or asks for donations. So who is supporting who here? I suppose it's all a catch 22 situation, but the result is that most folks are getting poor quality and/or much missing information in the process.
Anybody who honestly thinks manuals vendors are getting rich, simply has not thought through the process. In fact, I never started it thinking that it would be a great way to make a living. When I first started trying to put something on the web, I posted this article which explains why I personally wanted to have good printed literature for my own personal stuff.
our site /articles/whybuymanuals.htm
It was true for me then and true for me now. I personally am "stunned" that so many vintage audio collectors do not feel the same way.
I know there are tons of very well-to-do vintage audio collectors with beautiful homes, gorgeous gear collections, etc, yet many still go for the freebie online scans. Why is it that so many are willing to be satisfied with crappy scans or sub-par printouts? I find it tough to take my computer monitor to the reading room (toliet) and it doesn't feel good on my chest if on the living room floor or couch. But again, maybe that's just my warped perspective.
The member who previously posted his .02 about storage of manuals costing nothing... has no clue. Anybody care to guess how many 10's and 10's of thousands of dollars it would cost to (high quality) digitize a 100,000 manuals? What about spending the time and money to digitize all those thousands of manuals that nobody will probably ever want but need to be kept in case someone might?
OH.. and where did all those original printed manuals come from that are to be digitized. Were they just another of the "zero cost" things in the no or low cost digital solution? Even if all that could be done at zero cost, storage would not be free or even low cost. One would need many computers, many hard drives, thousands of DVD's and back up copies and all that periodically being replaced to insure against data loss. A lot of logistical problems present themselves as soon as you move from having a few hundred manuals (in whatever form) to having 10's or 100's of thousands.
In our case, we currently have 40 4-drawer filing cabinets of original printed manuals. Yes, that is 160 file drawers crammed full of original printed literature. On our budget, it is absolutely impossible for us to scan them and get rid of the printed manuals in my lifetime. It is simply out of the question for us. So, how much space is required to house 40 filing cabinets? Is that space free? Does it have a mortgage, have rent, fire insurance, business taxes, lighting/heating/cooling expenses, etc. In our case, it requires a whole second house up the street from our home, with a mortage and all the other mentioned things.
The current prevailing attitude among almost all audio group's members seems to be that everyone should drop what they are doing so they can scan all their literature and make it available to all comers. I mean, isn't that what nice people do to help other nice people?
Glenn doesn't think that is a good idea and will reap unintended results. In my case, I heartily agree. I believe it is very short-sighted position for the audio community as a whole. I expect that AK's and other sites advocating free scans will be the death of manuals vendors who are trying to really put out a quality product.
The internet is becoming polluted with so-called manuals vendors but we all know that many are semi-scam operations. Lots of flat-rate price PDF sites do not actually have the product even though they take your money. Lots of people who used to sell on eBay are no longer there. Even the biggest manuals seller on eBay over the past 4 years or so is currently listed as "Not a Registered User". He may get back on, but then, he was taken off earlier this year for a week or two. Perhaps it will happen again. I think it's in "ALL" or best interest to support honest sellers trying to provide honest products.
That's my .02....
Justen
Send Lawyers,Guns & Money
Damage
Super Member
That's not true. I did the entire Yamaha M70 manual and in TIFF format, which is quite large, it's at the max of 185MB. Reduced to about 13MB in PDF. That's less than a .01% of a 500GB harddrive. Space is cheap, bandwidth is cheap. That's not a valid arguement for anything.
There are many cost effective solutions to scanning in that many documents. You haven't tried hard enough to pursue them I think. Either from lack of desire or lack of contacts. And there are lots of OCR stuff and cheap labor to correct the text stuff. My wife makes $0.12/page doing just that from home. Maybe out of the question for you, but I bet there are lots of businesses capable of doing it, and doing it cost effectively.
Maybe, but it's time consuming for a novice. I can knock out a 15 page document in less than 15 minutes. Sell a popular one for 19.99 several times over, and you make a huge check in a hurry. And that's your business model. I don't see reason to complain.
I agree too.
Too true. But the money can be made by the right person with the right reputation. I know I trust to buy all my manuals from.
Not trying to be an ass. It's just a discussion on my part.
goldear
Certifiable Audio Junkie
Well said. I must admit that have been guilty of succumbing to the temptation of searching out the free manual online myself. In my case I had simply not thought of the consequences of doing this. For many years I have continued to support a favorite local record store for exactly these reasons. I did not want to see them go under, and be forced to shop online.
But now that the consequences of this practice have been brought to my attention, I completely agree that I also need to start supportting operations like yours, lest we loose very valuable resource.
Thanks Glen for the very appropriate slap in the face! :thmbsp:
You're making an assumption that these 30+ year-old manuals are usable with no cleanup...just scan and create a PDF from it. It's a faulty one.Damage said:
You're also assuming all the pages are 8 ½” x 11”. They aren't. Things get complicated when you have to scan a schematic (arguably one of the most important reasons for having the manual) in two or three sections and paste them together in Photoshop.
Rick's point is...he's in the business of providing printed manual reproductions, not PDF's (which for me have their place, but cannot begin to replace a bound paper copy).
Teron
Well-Known Member
--- Edit, I changed my opinion on this opinion. In response to Rick, no offense, but I was in partial agreement with EW...that is, until you posted. If anything I see you complaining about people complaining that you're the blood sucker etc etc but from your very post you're whining about losing profits and all your *SARCASM* - awful typical expenses that ANY business pays *SARCASM*...etc so...hmmm...let me point out you ARE taking one thing, duplicating it hundrends/thousands of times and re-selling a copy, a good copy sure, but still, you're NOT selling hundreds or thousands of actual authentic original items. That I think is what many people have a problem with(to be clear, I don't, good for you!). Yes you should get something for your time/effort/work. But obviously you're not hurting so we all suck for wanting free manuals(which could hurt you)? If you only do service manuals, your rant/campaign here could potentially also hurt the odds of the nice people around these parts that also scan in sales brochures, reviews, spec sheets etc. I've found really cool scans here on AK of old sales brochures/info on speakers, gear etc.
You then go so far as to say you see a 180 in attitude in the hobby. Reading your post...UH...hmmm...did you read YOUR words? 180 indeed! As long as I've been here at AK I've seen a WEALTH of information shared to the masses. Which from what I've seen is what helps this hobby thrive! The SHARING of information. If I want a printed nice quality manual I'll buy it. But if there's one freely available that has what I need and answers my questions/satiates my need for a tidbit of info, the harm in that is???????
The fact that EW, and the countless other great techs here SHARE their astounding knowledge and information FREELY is what contributes to the hobby thriving. Yet now we're going to start censoring for a supposed, greater good?
Now, maybe I mis-interpreted your post, but I see someone whining they're losing profits and acting like we're a bunch of bastards because some of us do want quality manuals(or otherwise) shared for free. You have a second house, overhead sure, but OBVIOUSLY you're not hurting or you wouldn't be doing it!!!
I see no problem with having a wealth of FREE high quality PDF service manuals, owners manuals, spec sheets, sales brochures, old reviews to SHARE amongst AK members(or anyone who wants more info!). This is a GOOD thing, that it appears, hurts your profits.
That being said, I also am happy to pay for quality manuals. I have spent hundreds of dollars on manuals for various things, and will continue to do so. In fact, for all I know I've purchased from you before, and would do so again.
I've spent $$ on the scam PDF sellers for manuals for stereo stuff, computer stuff, misc, and auto manuals. I despise them. But to go so far as to try and censor what is the sharing of information?!?!?! I also see mention that you can go to the library for free info too! Well, the AK manual groups are a library too, so let's shut down the local library???!!!
Again, these aren't fightin words, just my few cents.
The Pioneer and ADS info groups/pages are a GOOD THING!
So this is a new campaign to shut them down? Censorship on AK? Worse?
Since people DO sell spec sheets, old reviews, sales brochures etc. Let's ban those from AK too and all the websites out there. Oh, there's also many many great audio sites with specs/info/scanned pictures/brochures etc. Let's shut down TVK(sarcasm, I love your site Axel!), the technics site, and the countless others out there! They're providing "FREE" info and it can only hurt and cause the demise of our beloved hobby. Let's take it even further and the great techs here have a lot of FREE info on specific repairs right here at AK, hints/suggestions/ awesome step by step posts to help others.
Let's stop that too and charge to read those posts! Because, to have those available for free could mean the demise of our hobby.
I thought this was a happy place where sharing was caring!
What I think some of you are failing to realize is this campaign to censor/shut down sharing is what will ACTUALLY do more harm to this hobby than someone having to, oh the horror, pay for a second mortgage for their BUSINESS that, in theory, is doing quite well.
The pioneer scan database, of which I've only perused, is methinks a GREAT thing and a great resource for everyone, equally to share. The fact you specifically mention it as hurting YOU, and manual sellers and then going so far as to then spin that as hurting everyone????...ridiculous, overblown, hypocratic.
If this is seriously the grander scheme in the works here, or what is to come, I'm disappointed, and shocked!
If I've mis-interpreted the situation, I apoligize for my stupidity, but I don't think I have.
Again, I mean no offense to anyone and respect EW very much(as many of the other techs/people here at AK) and do agree with some of his, and other points made here...but am I alone in seeing this as being blown a little out of proportion?
--- also......I see Rick as the RIAA now...the people searching for free manuals weren't going to spend $$$ on yours anyhow!
In addition, Rick, it appears you try to say this is more of a hobby than a profit machine for you, if that were the case, you CAN justify remaining in business as you DO provide a good service to those that come to you. The fact that some people are getting their info elsewhere doesn't mean those sources(competition) need to be shut down, what are you Microsoft now???
So, is there a Yamaha manual group yet? Damage are you sharing the M-70 manual?
You then go so far as to say you see a 180 in attitude in the hobby. Reading your post...UH...hmmm...did you read YOUR words? 180 indeed! As long as I've been here at AK I've seen a WEALTH of information shared to the masses. Which from what I've seen is what helps this hobby thrive! The SHARING of information. If I want a printed nice quality manual I'll buy it. But if there's one freely available that has what I need and answers my questions/satiates my need for a tidbit of info, the harm in that is???????
The fact that EW, and the countless other great techs here SHARE their astounding knowledge and information FREELY is what contributes to the hobby thriving. Yet now we're going to start censoring for a supposed, greater good?
Now, maybe I mis-interpreted your post, but I see someone whining they're losing profits and acting like we're a bunch of bastards because some of us do want quality manuals(or otherwise) shared for free. You have a second house, overhead sure, but OBVIOUSLY you're not hurting or you wouldn't be doing it!!!
I see no problem with having a wealth of FREE high quality PDF service manuals, owners manuals, spec sheets, sales brochures, old reviews to SHARE amongst AK members(or anyone who wants more info!). This is a GOOD thing, that it appears, hurts your profits.
That being said, I also am happy to pay for quality manuals. I have spent hundreds of dollars on manuals for various things, and will continue to do so. In fact, for all I know I've purchased from you before, and would do so again.
I've spent $$ on the scam PDF sellers for manuals for stereo stuff, computer stuff, misc, and auto manuals. I despise them. But to go so far as to try and censor what is the sharing of information?!?!?! I also see mention that you can go to the library for free info too! Well, the AK manual groups are a library too, so let's shut down the local library???!!!
Again, these aren't fightin words, just my few cents.
The Pioneer and ADS info groups/pages are a GOOD THING!
So this is a new campaign to shut them down? Censorship on AK? Worse?
Since people DO sell spec sheets, old reviews, sales brochures etc. Let's ban those from AK too and all the websites out there. Oh, there's also many many great audio sites with specs/info/scanned pictures/brochures etc. Let's shut down TVK(sarcasm, I love your site Axel!), the technics site, and the countless others out there! They're providing "FREE" info and it can only hurt and cause the demise of our beloved hobby. Let's take it even further and the great techs here have a lot of FREE info on specific repairs right here at AK, hints/suggestions/ awesome step by step posts to help others.
Let's stop that too and charge to read those posts! Because, to have those available for free could mean the demise of our hobby.
I thought this was a happy place where sharing was caring!
What I think some of you are failing to realize is this campaign to censor/shut down sharing is what will ACTUALLY do more harm to this hobby than someone having to, oh the horror, pay for a second mortgage for their BUSINESS that, in theory, is doing quite well.
The pioneer scan database, of which I've only perused, is methinks a GREAT thing and a great resource for everyone, equally to share. The fact you specifically mention it as hurting YOU, and manual sellers and then going so far as to then spin that as hurting everyone????...ridiculous, overblown, hypocratic.
If this is seriously the grander scheme in the works here, or what is to come, I'm disappointed, and shocked!
If I've mis-interpreted the situation, I apoligize for my stupidity, but I don't think I have.
Again, I mean no offense to anyone and respect EW very much(as many of the other techs/people here at AK) and do agree with some of his, and other points made here...but am I alone in seeing this as being blown a little out of proportion?
--- also......I see Rick as the RIAA now...the people searching for free manuals weren't going to spend $$$ on yours anyhow!
In addition, Rick, it appears you try to say this is more of a hobby than a profit machine for you, if that were the case, you CAN justify remaining in business as you DO provide a good service to those that come to you. The fact that some people are getting their info elsewhere doesn't mean those sources(competition) need to be shut down, what are you Microsoft now???
So, is there a Yamaha manual group yet? Damage are you sharing the M-70 manual?
giant-rider
Rock Lobster
Right on Rick! It would be shameful for the audio community as a whole if you cannot have enough customers to justify remaining in business.
http://stereomanuals.com rules!
http://stereomanuals.com rules!
--- Edit, I changed my opinion on this opinion.
Reactionary, typical
Grow up Junior
They're talking the long haul here
"Sharing is Caring"?!?
Give me a break!
That old "digital narcotic" mixed in with a shot of liberal hypocrisy and stirred with a twist of Socialist idealism :yes:
A dangerous combination, indeed!
Craig
There are so many facets to this problem, and unfortunately the marketplace will eventually decide what survives.
1. Resellers of Manuals will make the most money from popular products, since there will be greater repeat demand. Unfortunately popular products usually have the most manuals in circulation, and all it takes is one being posted somewhere for free to undermine much of the potential business.
2. I am certainly willing to pay for manuals I need. I have purchased files, CDs, and paper reprints. I can vouch that you can get bad service from all formats, and that poor quality, either in delivery time or in the delivered product, are not uncommon. Providers of high quality products will develop great reputations and loyal followings.
3. One problem with vintage audio is finding a choice item for $50, then having to spend $50 or more for documentation (users manual and service manual). If you then need to spend $100+ for refurbishment parts, then the great $50 deal may not be so great when you figure in labor. A related mind-set problem is having to spend more on documentation than on the item, even if the refurbished item is a great deal.
If you are a hobbyist handling one new piece every few months, and doing it for the love of it, these costs are not a problem. If like me, you filter through a ton of items trying to find a couple of new gems here and there, the documentation costs can quickly mount. I can't keep every piece and the documentation costs are rarely recoverable. Sadly, the items I want to keep are rare enough that finding comprehensive documentation is difficult. I recently added a pair of RTR DR-1s to my system. They look and sound beautiful, but I can't find ANY documentation anywhere for the electrostatic cylinders or the custom-built amplifiers. If I can't find enough info to ensure I can keep them going, I'll probably end up getting rid of them.
4. This documentation problem appears to be specific to a very defined time slice. Sam's covers most offerings into the 1970's. If you have access to Sam's you can cover these items. And I wouldn't be surprised to see a DVD set of all Sam's documentation issued someday. For newer products manufacturer's have found it extremely cost effective to maintain on-line documentation for most newer products, and I believe this trend will continue and develop so that in a few years almost all required documentation will be available on-line for any post-2000 products. That leave a 20 to 30 year window where documentation services can thrive, and how well they do depends upon the amount of the target equipment that is being refurbished.
5. There are legal issues for anyone selling copies of proprietary company documents, which include all the documentation of interest to us. Many companies are out of business, and others don't want to be bothered supporting ancient offerings, but this does not change the legal landscape. If any company has a "formal" methodology for obtaining support documents, and that methodology is undermined or circumvented by document resellers, then the reseller's business model is technically illegal. If any company sees a reseller making money off their documentation they can step in at any time (I believe that copyright laws extend 55 years on most written documentation).
6. Even if legal, any reseller has to come to grips with the reality than modern technology is making information access cheaper. Bandwidth is much faster and cheaper than it was 2, 5 or 10 years ago. A $500 laptop has more computational speed and power than virtually any mainframe did 10 years ago. Hard drive storage is ridiculously cheap. The total costs for a scanning / OCR /storage are fixed and are not large. And a global economy means that information can be offered from anywhere in the world. If an American needs to make $10 or $20 or $30 an hour for scanning, then they need to realize that someone in India or China might do the same job for $3 an hour. Granted there are issues with this alternative, and I'm not condoning this, but it is possible.
As to the business specifics described in this post, an entirely separate house simply for 40 filing cabinets sounds like an excessive expense. My $60/ month storage unit could handle most if not all of that. Even if you add printing and shipping, the entire house is likely more expensive than other business alternatives.
A bigger concern might be a lack of capital to organize and scan everything that is in those cabinets, and then organize the resulting files for quick access. Unless you are selling originals, technologically there is no difference between scanning to print and scanning to transfer into PDF or some alternate file format. Only the retrieval and output options differ.
1. Resellers of Manuals will make the most money from popular products, since there will be greater repeat demand. Unfortunately popular products usually have the most manuals in circulation, and all it takes is one being posted somewhere for free to undermine much of the potential business.
2. I am certainly willing to pay for manuals I need. I have purchased files, CDs, and paper reprints. I can vouch that you can get bad service from all formats, and that poor quality, either in delivery time or in the delivered product, are not uncommon. Providers of high quality products will develop great reputations and loyal followings.
3. One problem with vintage audio is finding a choice item for $50, then having to spend $50 or more for documentation (users manual and service manual). If you then need to spend $100+ for refurbishment parts, then the great $50 deal may not be so great when you figure in labor. A related mind-set problem is having to spend more on documentation than on the item, even if the refurbished item is a great deal.
If you are a hobbyist handling one new piece every few months, and doing it for the love of it, these costs are not a problem. If like me, you filter through a ton of items trying to find a couple of new gems here and there, the documentation costs can quickly mount. I can't keep every piece and the documentation costs are rarely recoverable. Sadly, the items I want to keep are rare enough that finding comprehensive documentation is difficult. I recently added a pair of RTR DR-1s to my system. They look and sound beautiful, but I can't find ANY documentation anywhere for the electrostatic cylinders or the custom-built amplifiers. If I can't find enough info to ensure I can keep them going, I'll probably end up getting rid of them.
4. This documentation problem appears to be specific to a very defined time slice. Sam's covers most offerings into the 1970's. If you have access to Sam's you can cover these items. And I wouldn't be surprised to see a DVD set of all Sam's documentation issued someday. For newer products manufacturer's have found it extremely cost effective to maintain on-line documentation for most newer products, and I believe this trend will continue and develop so that in a few years almost all required documentation will be available on-line for any post-2000 products. That leave a 20 to 30 year window where documentation services can thrive, and how well they do depends upon the amount of the target equipment that is being refurbished.
5. There are legal issues for anyone selling copies of proprietary company documents, which include all the documentation of interest to us. Many companies are out of business, and others don't want to be bothered supporting ancient offerings, but this does not change the legal landscape. If any company has a "formal" methodology for obtaining support documents, and that methodology is undermined or circumvented by document resellers, then the reseller's business model is technically illegal. If any company sees a reseller making money off their documentation they can step in at any time (I believe that copyright laws extend 55 years on most written documentation).
6. Even if legal, any reseller has to come to grips with the reality than modern technology is making information access cheaper. Bandwidth is much faster and cheaper than it was 2, 5 or 10 years ago. A $500 laptop has more computational speed and power than virtually any mainframe did 10 years ago. Hard drive storage is ridiculously cheap. The total costs for a scanning / OCR /storage are fixed and are not large. And a global economy means that information can be offered from anywhere in the world. If an American needs to make $10 or $20 or $30 an hour for scanning, then they need to realize that someone in India or China might do the same job for $3 an hour. Granted there are issues with this alternative, and I'm not condoning this, but it is possible.
As to the business specifics described in this post, an entirely separate house simply for 40 filing cabinets sounds like an excessive expense. My $60/ month storage unit could handle most if not all of that. Even if you add printing and shipping, the entire house is likely more expensive than other business alternatives.
A bigger concern might be a lack of capital to organize and scan everything that is in those cabinets, and then organize the resulting files for quick access. Unless you are selling originals, technologically there is no difference between scanning to print and scanning to transfer into PDF or some alternate file format. Only the retrieval and output options differ.
Teron
Well-Known Member
Since we're on sound bites...
I'll never grow up...cause I'm a Toys R Us kid!
Long term or short term, my take is still what the perceived end goal is is unproductive and in fact going to cause exactly what has been said they're afraid of happening.
What I'm seeing is there's a group of people that want to stop the sharing of free information, which again, only seems to help this site/hobby thrive!
I'll never grow up...cause I'm a Toys R Us kid!
Long term or short term, my take is still what the perceived end goal is is unproductive and in fact going to cause exactly what has been said they're afraid of happening.
What I'm seeing is there's a group of people that want to stop the sharing of free information, which again, only seems to help this site/hobby thrive!
Rick
New Member
Teron, you said...
"If I've mis-interpreted the situation, I apoligize for my stupidity, but I don't think I have".
Ahhh.... yeah you did, utterly. You said I said things which I did not say. You inferred a lot of things I said which I did not say. You interpretted 90% of what I said to mean something I did not mean. You said you kind of understood/agreed with Glenn's initial post. I think you didn't cause if you did, then you should easily be able to see that I was only giving some additional perspective on exactly what he was talking about. You "somewhat" missed it entirely in my humble opinion.
It "appears to me" that your whole post is based on your assumption that I am probably a nasty guy with bad a bad attitude, semi-dishonest, semi-a crook, like a slum lord ripping off poor folks, like a mafia guy or a monopolist trying to shut all competition, or perhaps an unsavory politician trying to make it look like all good things in life flow from him.
Your response is typical of what I figured would happen if I ever made my views public. I said straight up that I had thought but never posted about the issue. Too many people appear to have the attitude that manuals vendors are bloodsuckers and are rolling in excessive profits made by charging for stuff that should be free.
It is sooooo easy for folks to assume how something is as a casual observer. However, closer scrutiny often reveals an entirely different situation than initially thought.
I'll tell you straight out. There is one major reason why I'm presently doing this manuals business... and it IS NOT for the huge profits you assume. You said (I think a couple times) that it's "obvious" that I'm not hurting (...otherwise I wouldn't be doing it...). I have no idea how you would know that, but whatever.
The facts are simple. It is because a few years of elderly parent problems and other things conspired against my best laid plans of 2001-2003 such that I'm in too deep to stop without a fight to survive. What initially looked like a truly viable business opportunity has turned into something that is vastly more expensive to fully establish than I ever would have dreamed. The work involved is 100 times more time-consuming than I ever would have dreamed. The profits have been far less than anticipated.
AND I CAN ASSURE YOU.... the single main reason for that last statement is because of the proliferation of so much of "the popular stuff" being posted all over the net for free. When there is little opportunity to profit on popular items, that leaves folks like me to a market that is mostly 1 of this, 1 of that. That destroys the business as it was only 3-4 years ago.
In 2002, we made twice as much money as now and we had only been at it for little over a year. At the time, we had perhaps 2000 manuals, but 90% of the busines was for perhaps 100-200 items. So it was very easy to "think"... wow... I wonder how good the business could be if we had 50,000 manuals or 100,000 manuals? Looks good. Sounds intriquing. Let's go for it!
Then, I produced popular manuals in quantities of 10-20 at a time and expected them to sell in a reasonable amount of time. NOW... we rarely do more than 2-3 at a time of even "the MOST popular" items. Most of the time we find ourselves doing "1" at a time.
I have no doubt that there will continue to be a number of what I call "boutique manuals sellers" in the world who will make a few hundred dollars a month as a hobby or sideline business, by selling some... only Marantz, or only Tandberg, or only reel to reel (or whatever). But there are too many impediments now for any sane person to view vintage audio manuals as a lucrative business worthy of investing large amounts of money and time. The return is just not there.
And like I told Glenn privately, even speaking about it is probably like pissing against the wind. Nothing is going to change. The majority of people are going to continue to believe that it all should be free. More and more stuff will be available for free as more and more people think they should scan what they have and post it on some free place. More and more people will go for the free instead buying from a place like us. As he and I have both said, it isn't really free and people usually end up with sub-par or outright crappy product... but it's free.
Anybody is perfectly free to interpret my remarks as bitching if they chose. It is not. I'm like the old Dragnet character, just the facts maam. I'm simply telling how it is from my view. Nobody made me start this, I did it myself. Nobody in the audio community is responsible whether it ultimately proves to be viable as a long-term business or not. That is a decision we have to make.
If it comes to pass that someone like me who desparately wants to do a great job for people, who wants to provide a great service, who loves being able to supply that thing folks can't find otherwise, who gets "pleasure" from helping folks.... makes a decision to shut down... well, that would be a bad thing for the audio community. Again... just my humble opinion, but I could be wrong.
"If I've mis-interpreted the situation, I apoligize for my stupidity, but I don't think I have".
Ahhh.... yeah you did, utterly. You said I said things which I did not say. You inferred a lot of things I said which I did not say. You interpretted 90% of what I said to mean something I did not mean. You said you kind of understood/agreed with Glenn's initial post. I think you didn't cause if you did, then you should easily be able to see that I was only giving some additional perspective on exactly what he was talking about. You "somewhat" missed it entirely in my humble opinion.
It "appears to me" that your whole post is based on your assumption that I am probably a nasty guy with bad a bad attitude, semi-dishonest, semi-a crook, like a slum lord ripping off poor folks, like a mafia guy or a monopolist trying to shut all competition, or perhaps an unsavory politician trying to make it look like all good things in life flow from him.
Your response is typical of what I figured would happen if I ever made my views public. I said straight up that I had thought but never posted about the issue. Too many people appear to have the attitude that manuals vendors are bloodsuckers and are rolling in excessive profits made by charging for stuff that should be free.
It is sooooo easy for folks to assume how something is as a casual observer. However, closer scrutiny often reveals an entirely different situation than initially thought.
I'll tell you straight out. There is one major reason why I'm presently doing this manuals business... and it IS NOT for the huge profits you assume. You said (I think a couple times) that it's "obvious" that I'm not hurting (...otherwise I wouldn't be doing it...). I have no idea how you would know that, but whatever.
The facts are simple. It is because a few years of elderly parent problems and other things conspired against my best laid plans of 2001-2003 such that I'm in too deep to stop without a fight to survive. What initially looked like a truly viable business opportunity has turned into something that is vastly more expensive to fully establish than I ever would have dreamed. The work involved is 100 times more time-consuming than I ever would have dreamed. The profits have been far less than anticipated.
AND I CAN ASSURE YOU.... the single main reason for that last statement is because of the proliferation of so much of "the popular stuff" being posted all over the net for free. When there is little opportunity to profit on popular items, that leaves folks like me to a market that is mostly 1 of this, 1 of that. That destroys the business as it was only 3-4 years ago.
In 2002, we made twice as much money as now and we had only been at it for little over a year. At the time, we had perhaps 2000 manuals, but 90% of the busines was for perhaps 100-200 items. So it was very easy to "think"... wow... I wonder how good the business could be if we had 50,000 manuals or 100,000 manuals? Looks good. Sounds intriquing. Let's go for it!
Then, I produced popular manuals in quantities of 10-20 at a time and expected them to sell in a reasonable amount of time. NOW... we rarely do more than 2-3 at a time of even "the MOST popular" items. Most of the time we find ourselves doing "1" at a time.
I have no doubt that there will continue to be a number of what I call "boutique manuals sellers" in the world who will make a few hundred dollars a month as a hobby or sideline business, by selling some... only Marantz, or only Tandberg, or only reel to reel (or whatever). But there are too many impediments now for any sane person to view vintage audio manuals as a lucrative business worthy of investing large amounts of money and time. The return is just not there.
And like I told Glenn privately, even speaking about it is probably like pissing against the wind. Nothing is going to change. The majority of people are going to continue to believe that it all should be free. More and more stuff will be available for free as more and more people think they should scan what they have and post it on some free place. More and more people will go for the free instead buying from a place like us. As he and I have both said, it isn't really free and people usually end up with sub-par or outright crappy product... but it's free.
Anybody is perfectly free to interpret my remarks as bitching if they chose. It is not. I'm like the old Dragnet character, just the facts maam. I'm simply telling how it is from my view. Nobody made me start this, I did it myself. Nobody in the audio community is responsible whether it ultimately proves to be viable as a long-term business or not. That is a decision we have to make.
If it comes to pass that someone like me who desparately wants to do a great job for people, who wants to provide a great service, who loves being able to supply that thing folks can't find otherwise, who gets "pleasure" from helping folks.... makes a decision to shut down... well, that would be a bad thing for the audio community. Again... just my humble opinion, but I could be wrong.
Scuzzer
Fixed Bias
Did you pay all the equipment manufacturers for the right to sell your "honest" product? Or did you happen to purchase a bunch of manuals and now sell copies?
The internet is all about sharing information. Trying to stop people from offering their manuals for free is futile, it's going to happen whether we think it's good or bad for the hobby.
Teron
Well-Known Member
If I mis-interpreted your posts, you sure did so with mine to a greater extent.
Funny how open discussions aren't really so open when one is outside of the box looking in and has a differing opinion. Suffice it to say don't judge too harshly, as you've never met me, and I never you. To which before you hastily roll your eyes, I'll repeat to myself to save you the trouble. I do agree with the fact there are lame subpar manuals out there. I have purchased those.
My main point is free information is a good thing and one of the reasons this hobby thrives and another large part of the social comradary here at AK. People helping others. SHARING IS CARING!
This has already ended in futility on my part, and I assumed it a waste of time, and it were. Back to the music.
See you around the juke box.
If you decide to throw in the towel and want out I'll give you $1,000 and cover transport costs for all your manuals and I will scan each and every one and host them and offer them FREE TO THE WORLD.
Funny how open discussions aren't really so open when one is outside of the box looking in and has a differing opinion. Suffice it to say don't judge too harshly, as you've never met me, and I never you. To which before you hastily roll your eyes, I'll repeat to myself to save you the trouble. I do agree with the fact there are lame subpar manuals out there. I have purchased those.
My main point is free information is a good thing and one of the reasons this hobby thrives and another large part of the social comradary here at AK. People helping others. SHARING IS CARING!
This has already ended in futility on my part, and I assumed it a waste of time, and it were. Back to the music.
See you around the juke box.
If you decide to throw in the towel and want out I'll give you $1,000 and cover transport costs for all your manuals and I will scan each and every one and host them and offer them FREE TO THE WORLD.
So...I spent 400+ hours scanning, converting and "cleaning up" high resolution manual scans for the Pioneer database, because I wanted to do something for the AK community, only to be accused of being the demise of this vintage audio hobby. Would it have been better (for the hobby) if I would have taken the capitalist route and sold the scans on ebay? Don't get me wrong, I see both sides of the issue. I just think the time to mention this would have been before all the work involved was invested by so many. I don't think all the discussion in the world will change the fact the digital world has changed the way information is shared. However, if the AK community decides, I will respectfully ask that all my scans be removed from the database.
Teron
Well-Known Member
If it ends up some censorship takes place and this gets all ridiculous like I fear is going to happen, can we set up an OFF AK site/storage for this stuff?
I think it's a GREAT idea what you've done vp_stereo and others with the other brands and was hoping we could get a huge library going, especially for Yamaha stuff. I thought this was a pretty relaxed open place and those like vp_stereo and all the others out there scanning stuff was doing GOOD THINGS for AK members and the hobby as a whole!
vp_stereo I appreciate the time you and others have spent compiling this stuff and only saw it as a win-win for everyone.
I assume I'm not alone...
I think it's a GREAT idea what you've done vp_stereo and others with the other brands and was hoping we could get a huge library going, especially for Yamaha stuff. I thought this was a pretty relaxed open place and those like vp_stereo and all the others out there scanning stuff was doing GOOD THINGS for AK members and the hobby as a whole!
vp_stereo I appreciate the time you and others have spent compiling this stuff and only saw it as a win-win for everyone.
I assume I'm not alone...
Scuzzer
Fixed Bias
vp_stereo (and others),
Many thanks for the time and effort you put into scanning the Pioneer manuals. I would like to think that the only way that the database should be removed is if Pioneer objects, they own the information, it's theirs to decide how it is used.
The people who have a financial stake in this discussion are the ones who are saying that the free distribution of manuals is bad for the hobby. I seriously don't understand how giving a free manual or schematic away can possibly decrease the interest in vintage equipment.
Many thanks for the time and effort you put into scanning the Pioneer manuals. I would like to think that the only way that the database should be removed is if Pioneer objects, they own the information, it's theirs to decide how it is used.
The people who have a financial stake in this discussion are the ones who are saying that the free distribution of manuals is bad for the hobby. I seriously don't understand how giving a free manual or schematic away can possibly decrease the interest in vintage equipment.
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