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Opinions on Eico HF-87?

T

theclipper

Active Member
Hi All,

As the thread title implies, I was hoping for any impressions or opinions about this amp.

I am currently auditioning one as I am trying to find something to replace my Fisher 400 with. I don't think I have developed a critical enough ear yet. So I was hoping for a little help. I'm trying to decide if it is a definite step up from the Fisher.

On first impressions it seems like it tames some of the highs that were a bit much on the Fisher. It also seems to have more pronounced bass. I'm not really sure how to listen for or classify other characteristics at this point.

The only issue with it is that it has a buzz in the speakers some times. The strange this is that after listening to records for a bit it seems the buzzing will be less. I believe the buzzing is an issue with my house though. The Fisher had a buzz in the left channel. A couple other amps I have tried have buzzed a bit too. I just wish I could figure it out. I was hoping it would stop after the analog TV signals were shut off a couple weeks ago, but no dice.

So, all in all, I was just hoping for a little advice from those of you who are much more knowledgeable about audio gear than myself.

Oh, also, I was wondering if a preamp would make the amp sound any better? Or is the preamp mainly just to be able to have tone controls? Can it actually improve the sonics at all? I was thinking of adding a Hagerman Clarinet preamp into the equation but am not sure if it is necessary/ and or would even improve the sound.

Thanks much!
-Clipper
 
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I have my HF-87 currently hooked up to Tannoy Kensingtons with supertweeters. To my ears, this setup is mind-meltingly good on all genres of music :) The main problem with these amps, is that most of them require a GOOD bit of work...

I don't see a problem in using the Eico without a preamp if you can do without the frills - it has way MORE gain than you'll ever need and the input impedance is WAY high (thus reducing the line-driving burden on your source)! It just seems that changing volume on those dual pots would be a pain. The ability to adjust balance is NICE, though (I wish more preamps had this feature, along with a mono switch and a healthy 20dB+ gain for low MC carts).

I alternate between the Eico and a pair of restored Heathkit W5-M. The Eico amps have killer bass impact for vintage amps - that seems to be their thing. It's also a bit more powerful than the Heathkits, though honestly either amp will scale up to ridiculous levels - and CLEANLY, at that - with the 93 dB/Watt Tannoys. Where the Heathkits have the upper hand - they have a sweet, liquid midrange and are nearly dead-quiet. An HF-87 in prime restored condition will be capable of some seriously high-end, musical sound when your speakers and source are top-notch (these two are usually the major bottleneck points in systems). If you have a glaring issue, like harsh treble, and your amp is in good working order, it's almost certainly speakers, room, and/or cartridge. In fact I just fixed a bit of top-range aggressiveness in my system by upgrading from a Benz Glider to an Ortofon Kontrapunkt (GREAT cartridges!).

All that said, it took quite a bit of work to get the Eico to this point - in all, 3 techs have worked on it. The first crack at it was taken before I acquired the amp. Basically the audio circuit had the old caps taken out and liberally replaced with Hovland Musicaps - OK, that's nice but I'm not a HUGE advocate of boutique parts. Unfortunately this tech neglected to replace the power supply caps which were at the end of their life. The amp worked and sounded good at this point, but there was a definite (but not deafening) hum even after warm-up.

I took the amp to The Audio Exchange in Chamblee GA, and he did a great job replacing the power supply caps, replacing the old fire-hazard-ish surgistor, fixing some of the bad wiring (it was originally assembled as a kit), and installed a hum pot to get the aforementioned hum down to negligible levels. Unfortunately, the amp had been running the EL34 tubes WAY too hot and this problem had been masked by the fact that I'd been using Teslovak EL34LS tubes up to that point (which are rated higher than normal EL34). When I tried EH tubes in there, they made a nice LARGE orange glow on their plates. We're talking on the order of 34 Watts on plates that are rated for a MAX of 25. Keep in mind this amp was designed for 117V from the wall; at my home I'm getting 125V! That was a big part of the problem right there, but on the other hand it seems that Eico intended for the tubes to run HOT. The manual clearly, and amusingly, states that a slight red glow on the plates is "normal" - it's NOT! That might be OK with the robust Mullards of the time, but I certainly wouldn't put today's Russian tubes on the same level. Amazingly my tubes ran fine for a few dozen hours like this (yes, I know it was stupid to do that). Fortunately I decided to have this fixed before something gave out...

The THIRD tech was Gordon W at Audio Atlanta. Gordon does amazing work. He figured out some pretty serious issues that were causing the tubes to run too hot. Also, there was apparently a tube wired wrong and the two channels were inter-dependent though they are not SUPPOSED to be (so you couldn't get away with two matched pairs of EL34 - needed a matched Quad). He fixed this ALL up and now the amp is a wonderful piece of gear. I've gone back to trying the EH 6CA7 tubes; they're really nice too! No more plate glow; not even a little!

In the context of all the work above...if you're willing to sacrifice just a touch of the old rough/vintage look...you could just buy a nice Rogue amp and be done with amp/preamp in one shot (the black faceplate Cronus looks SWEET) :p The Rouge tube amps sound SWEET. I just have a soft-spot in my heart for vintage tube amps.
 
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Hey Muveling,

I really appreciate your response!

I have the 87 on loan from an old tube audio guru who really knows all these old units inside and out. He actually lowered the feedback a bit to make it sound even better. He said that he could install a stereo volume control if I wanted. That way I could change the volume with just one knob instead of the two.

I can definitely tell that the bass is more present with the Eico. It also seems to have a smoother sound. It seems that I can listen to it at higher volumes than the Fisher without hurting my ears.

I think I need to do some more A/B sessions with the Fisher and tell if the Eico is really a step above the Fisher.

I have never heard of these Rogue amps, are they better than the Eico?


Thanks,
Clipper
 
theclipper said:
Hey Muveling,

I really appreciate your response!

I have the 87 on loan from an old tube audio guru who really knows all these old units inside and out. He actually lowered the feedback a bit to make it sound even better. He said that he could install a stereo volume control if I wanted. That way I could change the volume with just one knob instead of the two.
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Cool! Sounds like you're all set with a support system if you do acquire it. The stereo pot sounds like a good idea - why add a preamp circuit if it's not needed. Your HF87 would represent a very simple & clean audio path after your source, all in P2P wiring to boot.

The feedback thing is interesting - I wonder how that would affect the amp's power, distortion, and damping factor figures (stock damping factor is listed at a low-ish 11). I'd sure be curious to hear how mine sounds like that. The Eico manual states that it uses 17 dB of global negative feedback, stock - I believe that's a very moderate amount for an amp. IIRC many modern SS amps are known to use use 40 dB or more. Do you know what level your tech lowered it to?

theclipper said:
I can definitely tell that the bass is more present with the Eico. It also seems to have a smoother sound. It seems that I can listen to it at higher volumes than the Fisher without hurting my ears.
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:thmbsp:
The best systems are simultaneously the most resolving and LEAST fatiguing (even at fairly high volumes). I think these attributes go hand-in-hand with musicality. Still have yet to hear this amp clip or render even a hint of harshness, even when really cranking it!

theclipper said:
Hey Muveling,
I have never heard of these Rogue amps, are they better than the Eico?
Click to expand...
I'm fairly certain, based on what I've heard in other setups and the opinions of people I trust - the upper-range Rogue amps are going to be better and much more powerful to boot. A friend will be bringing over his Magnum Stereo 90 to try in my system next week - that will be interesting, but I might be itching for a Rogue of my own afterwards. I think the lower-range Atlas/Cronus versus a fully restored HF87 would be an interesting matchup! That said, with the quality of sound I've been enjoying since my latest speaker & cartridge upgrades - it sure doesn't SEEM like there are any weak links or bottlenecks in the chain. For now I have that money invested in the speakers & source, and that's exactly where it should be, for maximum effect. The Eico can hang with great gear, for sure.
 
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Hey mulveling,

I'm not sure what my tech lowered the feedback to. I will ask him next time I talk to him.

I'm hoping to get plenty of listening time in today. :yes:
 
Hf-87 upgraded

I have hf-87 upgraded with parts and values I received from Jim McShane,sound of that amp now is simply unbelivable,run with passive volume control and rogers studio 1a
 
Eico HF-87s do not like grounding. If you can, float the grounds on all your components and see if that tames the buzz.

-D
 
Some HF-87's have an extra lead on the power transformer for a fixed bias option, like the HF-89.On the HF-87 the original instructions you were supposed to cut the lead short,but some just taped it up.
 
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