Phone Pre Amps

[DBGLOBAL]

First off I would like to thank those who responded to my question regarding the Shure V15 III question of a Jico SAS and other stylus recommendations.

Can someone tell me how does a phone pre-amp work? Do you really need it to enhance the quality of the Shure V15 III? I have a Pioneer PL-560 running through a Marantz 2270.

Regarding the stylus, not sure if I want to spend $250 on the SAS.

 

[nerpissad]

An SAS stylus for a V15-III will set you back $169.95.
I have an SAS myself and like it alot. If you don't want to spend that much all at once, maybe you could consider the 'normal' hyperelliptical at $89,95

Since the Marantz you're using already has phono onboard and a decent one at that!
I don't think you'll improve things much by using an external phono preamp.

 

[thomo57]

First off I would like to thank those who responded to my question regarding the Shure V15 III question of a Jico SAS and other stylus recommendations.

Can someone tell me how does a phone pre-amp work? Do you really need it to enhance the quality of the Shure V15 III? I have a Pioneer PL-560 running through a Marantz 2270.

Regarding the stylus, not sure if I want to spend $250 on the SAS.

Jico SAS are around $130.
I don't know a lot about pre amps even though I have 4.
What I do understand is that they can be a step up from the pre amp which are normally in amps and receivers.
When using a pre amp from your turntable to the receiver/amp the pre amp should be connected to the auxiliary input

 

[dlaloum]

First off I am not familiar with that Marantz....

So my comments will be a little generic.

A phono pre-amp does 3 things:
1) It provides additional gain due to the low level signal of most cartridges (how much additional gain varies, as cartridges can range from very low output MC's at around 0.2mV peak, to standard MM's with around 5mV peak) - so that the output of the phono stage will be at line level (standard level used for audio interconnects)
2) The phono preamp equalises the sound using the RIAA EQ scheme, which properly adjust for the reverse EQ done when recording pretty much any post 1960 record.
3) It provides the appropriate input load required by the cartridge - the better phono stages provide adjustable input load to cater for a wider variety of cartridges.

Your Marantz has a complete phono stage onboard. It's output is fed into your internal pre-amp at line level.

When the receiver was new, the most critical part of it in terms of sound quality and sales was the phono stage, so most classic receivers have excellent phono stages.

The down sides of an integrated phono stage is that depending on design, it may pick up noise from other circuits within the receiver... in a perfect world the phono stage should have its own dedicated power supply and seperate shielded enclosure.

In practice, my own experience is that the phono stages in most classic receivers (and some current receivers too) are at the least on a par with basic phono stages up to around the $500 mark.

Sharing case and power supply knocks off the two most expensive parts of making a phono stage! The rest is mostly down to good engineering/design.

If your budget is $1k+ for a phono stage, then you may be able to better your receivers built in stage.

The other main reason for an external phono stage, is where the internal item doesn't properly match the cartridge you are using.

A Shure V15III will need a phono stage designed for standard 5mV MM, with 47k resistive load and around 200pf to 300pf capacitive load (in the phono stage).

If you need a different C load than what is provided by the phono stage (particularly a lower C load), or you need a different resistive load or gain than what is there, you may need an external phono stage. - NOT because it is better, but because it is more suited to your particular cartridge.

Hope that helps

bye for now

David

 

[jgannon]

First off I am not familiar with that Marantz....

So my comments will be a little generic.

A phono pre-amp does 3 things:
1) It provides additional gain due to the low level signal of most cartridges (how much additional gain varies, as cartridges can range from very low output MC's at around 0.2mV peak, to standard MM's with around 5mV peak) - so that the output of the phono stage will be at line level (standard level used for audio interconnects)
2) The phono preamp equalises the sound using the RIAA EQ scheme, which properly adjust for the reverse EQ done when recording pretty much any post 1960 record.
3) It provides the appropriate input load required by the cartridge - the better phono stages provide adjustable input load to cater for a wider variety of cartridges.

Your Marantz has a complete phono stage onboard. It's output is fed into your internal pre-amp at line level.

When the receiver was new, the most critical part of it in terms of sound quality and sales was the phono stage, so most classic receivers have excellent phono stages.

The down sides of an integrated phono stage is that depending on design, it may pick up noise from other circuits within the receiver... in a perfect world the phono stage should have its own dedicated power supply and seperate shielded enclosure.

In practice, my own experience is that the phono stages in most classic receivers (and some current receivers too) are at the least on a par with basic phono stages up to around the $500 mark.

Sharing case and power supply knocks off the two most expensive parts of making a phono stage! The rest is mostly down to good engineering/design.

If your budget is $1k+ for a phono stage, then you may be able to better your receivers built in stage.

The other main reason for an external phono stage, is where the internal item doesn't properly match the cartridge you are using.

A Shure V15III will need a phono stage designed for standard 5mV MM, with 47k resistive load and around 200pf to 300pf capacitive load (in the phono stage).

If you need a different C load than what is provided by the phono stage (particularly a lower C load), or you need a different resistive load or gain than what is there, you may need an external phono stage. - NOT because it is better, but because it is more suited to your particular cartridge.

Hope that helps

bye for now

David

Thank you for this David - the above really explains things in a concise and understandable way.

But may I ask you - and this I know is understood by probably most people here on the forum - just what is the difference between capacitance and gain?!! I know one has to be conscious of the two settings with a phono pre. (I'm thinking the gain is like increasing the voltage or power, but then I read there are different kind of gains. Which one applies when we are talking amps and preamps?) I guess this is also asking what the difference between resistive load and capacitive load is. If you could help illuminate me on this, I would greatly appreciate it!

Thanks so much!

Gannon

 

[dlaloum]

Hmmm....

Well gain is the same as volume - how large or small the voltage is, is basically how loud or soft the loudness of the sound is.

Different components work on different level signals, with the highest level being the signal going to the speakers.

So we have a chain of components that each apply a little more gain until we reach the level needed by the speakers. (along the way we tend to also process the signal, but that is a seperate thing)

Capacitance is a little more complex, a capacitor is basically a very basic battery - it absorbs electrical energy and then releases it - much like a bucket filling up with water from a pipe, and then overflowing - the water is delayed by an amount of time proportional to the size of the bucket.

All components include some amount of built in capacitance, particularly cables.
One of the other properties of capacitance is that it has differing "buffering"/"delay" effect on differing frequencies.... So it can be used to adjust the sound in various ways.

For more details on cartridge loading you will need to do some reading in the relevant thread, but in a nutshell:
When designing a cartridge the engineer takes into account the stylus properties and the generator/body, and then applies the cartridge loading capacitance and resistance as a means of balancing things out and properly voicing the cartridge.
The parameters in play are the inductance of the cartridge body, the stylus design, and the cartridge loading (which is the TOTAL capacitance and resistance of both the cables to the phono stage and the phono stage itself).

You can therefore use loading yourself to also adjust the voicing of the cartridge.... but I suggest you consider that an advanced topic for later research. (lots of material out there on cartridge loading)

hope that helps

bye for now

David

 

[bobins08]

I have a Marantz 2270 and it is a wonderful reciever with a very nice phono stage when it is operating to spec. My V15-III w/ SAS sounded great when connected to it.

A SAS is wonderful replacement stylus for the V15-III and it cost $139 plus shipping.

There are other cheaper stylus optioins available, such as Jico/EVG, that sound good as well.

Will you benefit from another phono stage? Hard to say. A budget phono stage will most likely not beat the Marantz phono input. Of course the 2270 is ~40 years old so if the Marantz is in need of a recap/ restore then an external phono stage might help.

Rather than a phono stage, I would look into a quality restoration of the Marantz first as it most likely would provide major benefits. Just don't trust this job to any tech. There are lots of threads that you can research and there are several AK techs that will make your 2270 like new.

Good luck,

Bob

 

[jgannon]

Hmmm....

Well gain is the same as volume - how large or small the voltage is, is basically how loud or soft the loudness of the sound is.

Different components work on different level signals, with the highest level being the signal going to the speakers.

So we have a chain of components that each apply a little more gain until we reach the level needed by the speakers. (along the way we tend to also process the signal, but that is a seperate thing)

Capacitance is a little more complex, a capacitor is basically a very basic battery - it absorbs electrical energy and then releases it - much like a bucket filling up with water from a pipe, and then overflowing - the water is delayed by an amount of time proportional to the size of the bucket.

All components include some amount of built in capacitance, particularly cables.
One of the other properties of capacitance is that it has differing "buffering"/"delay" effect on differing frequencies.... So it can be used to adjust the sound in various ways.

For more details on cartridge loading you will need to do some reading in the relevant thread, but in a nutshell:
When designing a cartridge the engineer takes into account the stylus properties and the generator/body, and then applies the cartridge loading capacitance and resistance as a means of balancing things out and properly voicing the cartridge.
The parameters in play are the inductance of the cartridge body, the stylus design, and the cartridge loading (which is the TOTAL capacitance and resistance of both the cables to the phono stage and the phono stage itself).

You can therefore use loading yourself to also adjust the voicing of the cartridge.... but I suggest you consider that an advanced topic for later research. (lots of material out there on cartridge loading)

hope that helps

bye for now

David

Thanks for all that David. What I've got to learn about is the second half of what you wrote here! I was aware of what gain was, I guess I was thinking about why some carts need a certain K (like 47K, etc.) but obviously that has to do with the output of the cart, and then what capacitance to set the cart at. There's a lot of terminology regarding what you wrote at the end again, that I have to familiarize myself with. Thanks!!