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Phono preamp choices
- Thread starter DavidTT
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desertrat748
Super Member
Yes. I just received notice that it will be posted. Hopefully as I write this reply.
DR
desertrat748
Super Member
I looked into the hypnotoad build a few years ago, and actually yours in 2019. Would have loved to build it but I was too intimidated by all of it and couldn’t open up the files for viewing. Your build has some features that I would love to have like the warp filter.
The mods on my bugle2 build (given to me by Oranda) change sound experience so far from the original bugle2, that I would never consider a original bugle2 for a option. Nor a Mani. However, I’m curious about a Mani2 and how it would compare.
To OP; this Wyn build is a proven design. Lots of options and looks like it can be modified easily. I’m just a paint by numbers type guy who likes it almost fool proof. If you saw my dexterity w solder iron, you would understand.
DR
yes, would agree with @desertrat748 , the mani is good, but not great. The EAR clones are a nice step up from it. But you also need to remember the EAR clones are a copy of a 2.5k phono stage from the UK, so not really a fair comparison with a couple hundred dollar phono stage.
wyn palmer
Addicted Member
The EAR design is a pretty basic tube amp. Simple design, with all of the associated issues and benefits of a tube phono stage. Pretty high distortion, high noise, high hum levels, relatively poor RIAA compliance, not "neutral" sounding, poor power supply noise and input mains noise rejection. If you like the non-neutrality and can tolerate the other aspects of the design, or indeed enjoy them (swapping tubes, continually futzing around to tweak the character with this change or that change, sensitivity to line cable, output cables) then it's a great choice.
The mani 2, is a quite decent SS phono stage for MM. For MC, not so much. It has its own character- the RIAA flatness is not great and the architecture does not do a great job of rejecting RF interference or at providing low distortion for the MC mode in particular at the upper end of the audio band, but it's quite quiet and they've improved the power supply performance using their wall wart by at least an order of magnitude over the man1. The design is DC coupled, but a rumble filter can be turned on. The "rumble filter" is a first order type inherently, but you can cascade two of them to provide more roll off at the expense of a very poor LF response, and as it's in series with the output the frequency response is sensitive to the load.
The MM has a very low noise spec, but in reality, it is not particularly quiet as it uses OPA1612s that don't perform well with real MM cartridges like the Shure v15 Mark III, for example.
The "Wyn" build is not a completely trivial build, but there are about 250 of them out there. The mostly full build is being commercially sold now for $2500. It's modular. I don't recommend it unless you are into DIY electronic builds, but if you do it will never require tweaking. No power cord issues, no cable issues, virtually no distortion over the entire audio band, no swapping of components, no RIAA variations to adjust, no RF issues, extremely low noise for both MM and MC. It has a completely different approach for "rumble" filtering that is not sensitive to loading and that does not affect the LF response of the phono channel in vinyl playback.
Edit. it also has relay output switching to eliminate that annoying turn on/off pop, and it can be configured as a line stage with volume, balance/mono capabilities or as a balanced output/SE stage.
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SterlingOne
Super Member
Mani was worst for me, not for the sound but for the sequence of turning on and off connected to my line preamp.Wrong sequence and POP. Not good. I now run my TT into phono pre of Parasond P6, both MC and MM and I find the vinyl playback system as a whole sounds very life-like.
desertrat748
Super Member
I forgot about using the mani switched to MC. It is not a good choice and the word “terrible” comes to mind.
It performs acceptably better with a SUT and in MM mode.
Given the earlier statement about the mani 1 being a poor performer and being sent back immediately, I would have to agree if I had checked it out in MC first. Unfortunately I only had MI at the time.
Edit: I had the loud pop too and never used the power switch afterwards.
It performs acceptably better with a SUT and in MM mode.
Given the earlier statement about the mani 1 being a poor performer and being sent back immediately, I would have to agree if I had checked it out in MC first. Unfortunately I only had MI at the time.
Edit: I had the loud pop too and never used the power switch afterwards.
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desertrat748
Super Member
It is up. Look for the “best preamp under $1000” title.
wyn palmer
Addicted Member
The SOTA Pyx and Acrux, and the WP phono stage, use output relays to stop the pop.
ctjetta
It's not a perfect world
Please, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.
wyn palmer
Addicted Member
Am I wrong?Please, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.
For many years I had a Hovland HP100 with SUT as my main preamp (shown below, in storage). For some time, it was highly regarded, and I even occasionally swap it in- just because. I did the whole tube du jour / mains cable swap / output cable swap / cap upgrade thing and there were times that it sounded, well, magical - for some music at some time, but it always did poorly under certain circumstances- hence the endless tweaking. I even had my spouse (trained voice, music minor in college, attends all of the concerts I go to) and now just 19-year-old daughter (who has great ears) help in the swap- doing blind listening, taking notes etc. etc. Heck, the original "designers" apparently used divining rods to select the best components and the best direction for their resistors (I kid you not).
It was a never-ending process because there were always changes that could make it better- if only transiently. However, it became obvious that things that made it sound better at a given instant often made it sound worse for LPs that I used to enjoy. So the journey began..
.
ctjetta
It's not a perfect world
I am not in any way questioning the veracity of your post. Merely noting the passion in your statement. This, done tongue in cheek.
I totally respect your opinions and admire your efforts in presenting a state of the art phono pre any of us could build (with the pre-requisite skills, of course).
So, please, by all means continue to enlighten us. This I ask sincerely.
AvFan
Super Member
The other day I was wondering what might be considered the best standalone MM preamps. Maybe one that has been around for some time or tube version folks are particularly fond of. Audio is a hobby and I hadn't really explored other MM preamps, so why not? I frequently like the sound of my MC carts when I combine one of Wyn's MM preamps and one of my SUTs. Maybe there was a MM preamp out there that I'd enjoy.
And then I remembered Dorthoy's line from the Wizard of Oz: "...if I ever go looking for my heart's desire again, I won't look any further than my own backyard..." I am fortunate to have Wyn's V1 and V2 MM preamps. They are probably as far as I should look.
would not agree with all your conclusions, but everyone has their own opinions.
wyn palmer
Addicted Member
I'm curious, which "conclusions/opinions" do you disagree with? I tried to stick to objective matters, mostly based on measurements of an EAR, Mani and Mani 2 performed by a third party, and a number of my own observations/measurements that confirm their work. I've also performed "strip downs" of the designs and I'm well aware of their strengths and limitations- which again are consistent with the above post.
comments are mix of general opinions and a mix on measurements. Comments that tube gear is generally noisier than SS. Pretty broad brush strokes.
wyn palmer
Addicted Member
That really doesn't answer my question, does it. Be specific. This was not about tube gear generally but the specific model. Would you like me to link to Stereophile or other reviews for measurements for example. Better still, why don't you do that work yourself as you might find it more informative.
desertrat748
Super Member
Major edit. My bad. I thought it was on the other thread and I am having a hard time keeping up.
Forgiveness please.
Forgiveness please.
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wyn palmer
Addicted Member
Sorry, I thought it was about "phono preamp choices" and not about the Bugle 2 in particular.
If you want, I can show simulation results for the Bugle 2 to provide values for noise, RIAA accuracy etc. - assuming the schematic I have dated 3/24/2014 and labelled Hagerman Audio Labs Bugel 2 is correct, which I believe it is. I can also do that for the EAR design in a while, once I've fully rebuilt my database. I normally keep archives of whatever extant phono stage designs I can find schematics for, but they went the way of all things in my recent workstation crash.