Phono preamp

[MacStereo]

Can someone please help a newbie to understand what an external phono preamp does between the TT and the stereo preamp.

And, is there an accepted equation as to how one should spend their money % allocations] when assembling a vinyl system from scratch?

I need:

TT
arm
cartridge
phono preamp

And, has anyone had any experience with a Sim Audio phono preamp?

Many Thanks!!!
Matt

 

[Tedrick]

Borrowed from somewhere on the Internet and edited a little:

Unlike line level audio sources you connect to a stereo (DVD/CD players, tape decks, TV audio, minidisc, etc.), the output from a phono cartridge is MUCH lower [typically less than 6 mV], and requires an additional stage of amplification to bring it up to the same volume as the other sources you listen to through your stereo. This additional amp stage, the phono preamp, is built-in to most older receivers and integrated amps, allowing direct connection of a turntable. However, newer stereo equipment (including virtually all mini-systems and home theater units), have NO phono input. In order to utilize the inputs such units DO have (Aux, Tape, Line, Video, CD, etc.) to connect a turntable, you need to first pass the signal through an external phono preamp to amplify the weak signal from the cartridge up to line level. The same level increase is needed if you're connecting a turntable to a computer sound card's line input so you can make CD-Rs from LPs; again, the external phono preamp provides it.

WHAT IS RIAA EQUALIZATION?

Because of limitations in the LP recording process, an equalization curve must be applied to the music or other sonic content prior to it being cut onto vinyl, so as to reduce background noise and sibilance. Reversing this equalization effect (the RIAA curve) and restoring the music's original frequency response curve during playback is an important part of the phono preamp's job and differentiates it from other preamps, which usually provide gain but no other modification of the original sound quality. Proper RIAA re-equalization during playback is a must in faithfully producing the original musical content without coloration or distortion.

As to your questions RE: equipment, why not give us a target $$$ amount to work with, and then we can suggest equipment that would fit within you budget.

 

[miner]

Will also need to know the cartridge (for specs) before an adequate preamp can be chosen.

 

[MacStereo]

Your blue content within your reply was perfect. Thanks. I feel that I have graduated from TT101.

Next up, specs and MM vs MC.

I would like to keep the total sum under $5000. In time, I'll do the upgrade path once I have gained a better understanding about vinyl.

 

[HypnoToad]

Your blue content within your reply was perfect. Thanks. I feel that I have graduated from TT101.

Next up, specs and MM vs MC.

I would like to keep the total sum under $5000. In time, I'll do the upgrade path once I have gained a better understanding about vinyl.

Keeping it under $5000 won't be a problem.

The problem you will have is what combination's to buy.

And it also depends on what amp and speakers you have.

It would be a waste of money to connect it all to a home theater setup.

So what amp and speakers do you have?

 

[Tedrick]

You can put together a pretty killer rig for $5K, and you have a lot of really good equipment to choose from. If I were shopping with that budget, I'd be looking at a VPI Scoutmaster (or maybe the new Classic or a used Super Scoutmaster) with JMW-9 Signature arm and the Synchronous Drive System, a Dynavector mc cart of some kind, and a phono preamp from the likes of Musical Surroundings or Graham Slee.

 

[shelly_d]

Your budget is big enough to give you a VERY wide choice of gear. I would put somewhere between 35% and 45% of that into speakers. Find as many places as you can find that carry stereo gear and LISTEN. Take along music you are familiar with. Try to find music in your normal listening collection that will show up the type of responses that are important to you. If bass is important, pick one CD that shows that up well without a lot of other music to get in the way. If clear vocals are your thing, find that in you collection.

When you listen to the speakers, try to imagine listening to them for hours at a time. Beware of the speakers that are "impressive" enough to give you a WOW on the midrange or treble. Sometimes to boost sales some speaker makers will deliberately emphasize the mid or upper range of the frequency range to get you impressed enough to buy. The down side of this is that it adds to listener fatigue.

For the TT preamp, sometimes you can find a real gem of a preamp from the 60's or 70's that works fine, sounds great, and includes a phono preamp. I've listed to 4 or 5 amps of this type in my time. Some are much better the others. My friends Nakamichi and my Dynaco are 2 that I really like (PAT5 not PAT4). The down side of something like this is that it is old and therefore has some reliability risk that comes with it.

 

[MacStereo]

All great advice ... thanks everyone. We are at ground zero which adds further to the value of all of this input.

 

[wordherder62]

Question: Is $5K for system in total or just for TT and pre-amp? As noted above, it makes a radical difference and the suggestion above to spend $4K on TT and pre-amp alone will leave you with a pretty crappy amp and speakers--not a good solution. As someone noted above, you need to make sure you get good speakers and something to drive them--amp or receiver--that will be the basis of your system. Without those elements being there, you're not going to get what you really want in terms of sound.

A little clarification might change the suggestions you get and require dropping your budget on the TT and pre-amp--not a problem as you'll find lots of folks here very happy with spending $1,000 to $2,000 on TT and pre-amp combinations. And, according to your amp choice (if you choose an integrated amp with the pre-amp and amp in one unit), you might be able to hold off on the pre-amp for awhile if your amp has a good phono section built in (though that's not often the case with today's integrated amps/receivers).

Richard

 

[MacStereo]

My apologies .. I realize that I was too vague.

I should have been clear in stating that the $5000 is for vinyl playback, exclusively: TT, phono preamp [maybe], tonearm, cartridge.

By "maybe" on the phono preamp, I have a phono stage in our present HT preamp that could suffice for the time being allowing me to sink more money into the TT and its associated items. We combine our music listening with our movie watching: stereo & HT share the same equipment.

I'd like something from this initial round of vinyl playback purchases to last beyond the first round of eventual upgrades.

 

[dynacoPAS]

the HT phono stage would be a weak point. Buy a standalone phono stage like a cambridge 640p or a bellari tube phono. These will all be sufficient to power up and MM cart or even a High output moving coil. You cartridge selection will dictate the preamp though. If it was me I would look at an older table a vintage table that has proven to stand the tests of time. A vintage thorens or a Rega would do most things the other tables listed previously. With 5K you could buy a TD-124 thorens with a high end arm on it for that kind of money. And I know that table would stnd up to a VPI or Music Hall anyday. A Dual CS-5000 would be a fine choice as well. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Tedrick]

As a follow-up to my original post, I'll also mention that the VPI 'tables offer a factory-supported upgrade path that makes them very attractive to me. As time and funds allow, you can upgrade the platter, motor, plinth, tonearm, feet, etc. to your heart's content.

And I'll agree with dynacoPAS, the phono pre in your HT receiver was likely more of an afterthought and would probably be a real weak link in the chain if you invested the full $5k in 'table, arm, and cart.

 

[MacStereo]

I was unaware of the VPI upgrade path. That does sound very inviting. I perused the Thorens' website and found an impressive selection of TT's as well.

I agree. Our HT processor's phono stage will be the immediate weak link. With that in mind, I'd like to make one long term selection from the needs list, and minimize the other purchases given their inevitable replacement.

To protect the actual albums from unnecessary wear, I'll need to spend a decent amount of money on the cartridge to acquire a stylus that won't harm the vinyl.

Therefore, it seems that I have one choice to make:

[a] buy a very nice TT and use our weak phono stage
buy a very nice phono preamp and buy an inexpensive TT

This approach would allow me to enjoy one purchase for many years while I upgraded other aspects of the vinyl system over time.

 

[bsujeep]

To protect the actual albums from unnecessary wear, I'll need to spend a decent amount of money on the cartridge to acquire a stylus that won't harm the vinyl.

While I agree that you need to spend some money to get a cartridge that will match the quality of the equipment you are going to get the setup of said cartridge will determine whether you damage the vinyl.IMHO A $50 M97xE setup properly will do no harm to your records, however a $2000 cart setup poorly will cause damage.

That said I would vote for option b) with the least expensive TT tonearm combo you can get with adjustable VTA and and pick up an AT440MLa or other cart in that price range. Then find someone in your area that can help you set it up properly so that you can enjoy the quality of sound you seem to be looking for. Where are you?

 

[jmathers]

IMO for $5000 you will have no problem getting a great TT AND a great phono stage. You will still be limited by the components you are hooking it to though.

I'd buy a used TT and a used phono pre. The table and arm combo and the phono preamp will determine the range of NEW cartridges you can select.

Don't forget that you'll need a record cleaning machine as well. You won't regret that purchase ever.

Jeff

 

[Brett a]

Therefore, it seems that I have one choice to make:

[a] buy a very nice TT and use our weak phono stage
buy a very nice phono preamp and buy an inexpensive TT

This approach would allow me to enjoy one purchase for many years while I upgraded other aspects of the vinyl system over time.

Unless you're thinking of putting an $18 cartridge on this $5k system, you needn't worry about your stylus selection causing damage. Set-up really is the issue.

I wouldn't suggest going for either of your options "A" or "B". At five grand, you can spread the costs out in a balanced way and end up with really amazingly good everything.

My idea of balanced would be 25% of budget on cartridge, 25% on arm, 25% on preamp and the last quarter spent on the 'table and cables (from phono pre to preamp). At $1,250 a quarter, you'd end up with a system you'd never have to upgrade (but you may still want to).

One more point. Although AK is a place for anyone into audio, its center of gravity really is in the vintage gear community--$5k analog set ups are not our strong suit. (Already you've had people suggest you spend $300 instead of $5k) Five grand is a whole lot of money and you''re best to do some thorough research before you buy. In addition to AK, check out Audiogon and Audio Asylum. There are a lot more folks on those forums with $5k+ analog systems who can offer opinions based on experience.

But exponentially better, find a brick-and-morter high-end shop with knowledgeable (and hopefully friendly) sales people. Nothing beats dealing face-to-face with an actual human being and it's good to support the few places like this left in the world.

Happy hunting!
:thmbsp:

Don't forget that you'll need a record cleaning machine as well. You won't regret that purchase ever.
Jeff

Right. This too. What he said.

 

[jmathers]

Although AK is a place for anyone into audio, its center of gravity really is in the vintage gear community--$5k analog set ups are not our strong suit.

I disagree. There's plenty of folks on AK with far more expensive vinyl setups. Just a matter of getting them to post.

Some suggestions to look at and research (not necessarily from direct experience):

TT: Sota Sapphire, VPI Scout, Nottingham Spacedeck, Mitchell Gyrodeck, VPI HW19, Linn LP12, Rega P5, Music Hall MMF7, an idler drive vintage table like the Thorens TD124 or Garrard 301/401.

Phono Pre: EAR 834p, Graham Slee Era Gold Mk5, Sim Audio Moon LP5.3, Rogue Audio Stealth, Dynavector P75 (with a Dyna cartridge only), K&K Audio or Art Audio Vinyl One, Jolida JD9, Hagerman Cornet.

Cartridges (will depend on the phono pre and table/arm combo): Dynavector 20xl, Dynavector 17D3, Dynavector 10X5, Benz Ace series, Benz H,M,L wood-bodied series, Ortofon 2M Black, Shelter 501, AT OC9, AT 150MxL, etc.

Jeff