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Phono stage and preamp questions

M

MrSpore

New Member
Hello everyone,
This is my first time posting on this forum, I've enjoyed vinyl for a long time but only recently I've been able to invest much more time and money into the hobby and I have some questions about preamps. My current setup is an LP120 with the internal preamp bypass mod and a VM540ML, ART DJ Pre II Phono Preamp, ST70 amp, and Klipsch RP500M II speakers. I plan to add a subwoofer to go with the speakers and I'd also like to upgrade from the ART DJ Pre II, probably to a tube preamp since I've really been enjoying the ST70 (my first stereo tube amp and latest addition). After doing some research I've seen some sources claim that a phono stage and preamp are the same and some say otherwise. My understanding is that a phono stage is a pre amp with the RIAA EQ applied while just a normal preamp does not have RIAA? In this case would I need to buy a phono preamp and a separate normal preamp if I wanted to play both vinyl and CDs or anything other than vinyl? I'm not very familiar with all the different preamps available, are there good quality ones that can do both phono and other mediums? Thanks!
 
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Some preamps have a built in phono stage, some don't, you have to look at each one to see what you get, and most built in stages do not offer much adjustment, most don't offer any at all.
My Parasound P6 preamp used in my office has an okay phono stage, while my Schiit Freya+ preamp used in the main living room stereo does not have one. I use a Schiit Skoll phono preamp with the Freya+ (great combo). While the P6 has a built in phono stage, I use a Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 phono preamp instead because it has plenty of adjustment and simply sounds better.
 
The terms are a bit vague, but what we now usually call a "power amp" (ie it supplies power to loudspeakers) was often simply referred to as an amplifier way back. Anything that amplified audio signals but wasn't intended to drive loudspeakers was called a pre-amplifier. You could have pre-amplifiers for turntable cartridges, pre-amplifiers for tape heads, pre-amplifiers for microphones... etc, etc. In a domestic audio system there would often be unit called a "control amp" which selected between different sources, such as turntable, tape deck, tuner, then amplified those signals as required, controlled the volume and offered some sound adjustment via tone controls. They would also sometimes be called pre-amplifiers, and they'd send their output to the power amp.
So the term "pre-amp" is somewhat ill-defined. Your ART DJ is a phono preamp and it does one job, as you say, which is to amplify a turntable cartridge and apply RIAA EQ. It could also be called a phonostage.
Then there are line level preamps. As a bare minimum, these select between sources and control the volume, but they may also offer tone controls, balance, maybe a loudness function etc. They need to be used in conjunction with a power amp to drive loudspeakers.
What may be called a "full function preamp" would do what a line level preamp does but also include an onboard phonostage.

I'm not sure how your current setup works. The ST70 is a power amp (as far as I'm aware) and you have no volume control other than the gain trim function on the phonostage which is giving you a 20dB range (if I'm looking at the right phonostage).
Anyway, you need a preamp, either with an onboard phonostage or without. If it is without, you'll need an outboard phonostage.
 
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MrSpore said:
Hello everyone,
This is my first time posting on this forum, I've enjoyed vinyl for a long time but only recently I've been able to invest much more time and money into the hobby and I have some questions about preamps. My current setup is an LP120 with the internal preamp bypass mod and a VM540ML, ART DJ Pre II Phono Preamp, ST70 amp, and Klipsch RP500M II speakers. I plan to add a subwoofer to go with the speakers and I'd also like to upgrade from the ART DJ Pre II, probably to a tube preamp since I've really been enjoying the ST70 (my first stereo tube amp and latest addition). After doing some research I've seen some sources claim that a phono stage and preamp are the same and some say otherwise. My understanding is that a phono stage is a pre amp with the RIAA EQ applied while just a normal preamp does not have RIAA? In this case would I need to buy a phono preamp and a separate normal preamp if I wanted to play both vinyl and CDs or anything other than vinyl? I'm not very familiar with all the different preamps available, are there good quality ones that can do both phono and other mediums? Thanks!
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usually a phono preamp will give you the 40 DB of gain you'll need for your phono cart plus have the RIAA eq built in.

there are so many options out there for tube preamps. you may want to consider the Marantz 7 clone coupled with an EAR Phonobox clone. Both would a nice match for your ST-70.
 
Most older pre amps will have phono. My Counterpoint pre amp has a tube phono stage. Hopefully someone will chime in with today's offerings.
 
I'm with rothwellaudio. Is your phono stage (ART DJ) just plugged directly into the ST70 and you're controlling the volume with the gain knob? Not optimal at all. Definitely find a preamp. Sound will improve immensely. What's your budget? Lots of options out there. I just went through the process myself for a tube preamp.
 
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I just have the ART DJ plugged directly into the ST70 and I was using the gain trim as volume control. So the ART DJ is not a "full function preamp" and only does the RIAA and some of the preamplification but I need a line stage preamp to fully preamplify the signal? I don't have any problems with the volume of the system as it is, will the line preamp improve the audio quality as well or would it only give me more volume and tone controls?

I don't have a strict budget, I guess $500-1000 would be ideal. The Marantz 7 clone idea sounds interesting, I have very limited experience working with electronics but I would like try a DIY project like that espescially if it would be a better value than buying a vintage or modern preamp (open to either of those options as well).
 
MrSpore said:
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I just have the ART DJ plugged directly into the ST70 and I was using the gain trim as volume control. So the ART DJ is not a "full function preamp" and only does the RIAA and some of the preamplification but I need a line stage preamp to fully preamplify the signal? I don't have any problems with the volume of the system as it is, will the line preamp improve the audio quality as well or would it only give me more volume and tone controls?

I don't have a strict budget, I guess $500-1000 would be ideal. The Marantz 7 clone idea sounds interesting, I have very limited experience working with electronics but I would like try a DIY project like that espescially if it would be a better value than buying a vintage or modern preamp (open to either of those options as well).
Click to expand...
No, the ART is not a "full function preamp". It's a phono stage, and you're applying gain to the signal to try an increase volume. Phono stages amplify very weak signals. Gain is typically applied to properly match the cart to a line level input on a preamp. The more gain you add, the chances to over-amplify the signal increases, introducing clipping, distortion etc. Yes, your setup works as is, but it's not optimal. I would look for a line level preamp (with or without a phono stage, since you already have one). Lots of options out there.
 
MrSpore said:
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I just have the ART DJ plugged directly into the ST70 and I was using the gain trim as volume control. So the ART DJ is not a "full function preamp" and only does the RIAA and some of the preamplification but I need a line stage preamp to fully preamplify the signal? I don't have any problems with the volume of the system as it is, will the line preamp improve the audio quality as well or would it only give me more volume and tone controls?

I don't have a strict budget, I guess $500-1000 would be ideal. The Marantz 7 clone idea sounds interesting, I have very limited experience working with electronics but I would like try a DIY project like that espescially if it would be a better value than buying a vintage or modern preamp (open to either of those options as well).
Click to expand...

There are many new, assembled and well built copies of the Marantz preamp available for very little money ... well $300 or so ..
You don't have to assemble unless that floats your boat ..

Do a bit of research on the different clone brands before you buy tho .
There are also some really really fine vintage Preamps that can be found, but there are so many different preamps that sorting the good ones from the mediocre ones can be a long and winding road...

Enjoy the Music ...
 
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If you are on a budget, the EAR 834 clones sound very nice, and if you only listen to vinyl and don’t want to buy a “control amplifier” preamp, then get one with a volume control and you are all set.
 
There are a few pre amps on the San Diego Craigslist that will work better.

Your st-70 can be a fantastic power amp. You really need a dedicated pre.

I'd try to find a buddy with several preamps that you can try/audition. I'm doing something similar with a guy's big Onkyo. He was using a NAD integrated as a preamp.
 
I am sorry to have to say this but unless you have big money you are going to find tube phono pre-amps are to noisy and in many lacking clarity of similar priced SS phono pre-amps. This is especially true if you have low output MC cartridges. But if you have the money or don't play your system very loud, go for it! You can find work arounds by using cartridges with higher out put voltages, both MC and MM. I have two high output MC cartridges that work perfectly with MM inputs. I also have a conventional MC cartridge but that requires either a step up transformer a pre-preamp phono stage. I chose the SS MC to line level pre-amp that allows changing input impedances and other variables. It has unbalanced, balanced analog out puts plus optical and coaxial and USB digital out puts. Analog for the stereo system, and digital for the CD recorder and the 7 channel HT system.
 
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