Photographer's Right

[chillwolf]

Here is a link to a PDF that you can download that explains the rights of photographers in the U.S. After reading the post about how gpagoda was questioned by police when he was taking photos on his own property, I thought it would be good for the photographers here to know their basic rights when taking pics. I think some can be intimidated by people in authority when it comes to where they can take pics. Print out this PDF and keep it in your camera bag so if anyone hassles you, you can take it out and let them know your rights. Being informed is a good defense!
Remember these rights pertain to the U.S. Do a google to find what your country's are.

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

 

[Endzone]

That's an interesting read, but there seems to be a grey area too. My experience has been that when you are dealing with cops, they are going to do whatever they want to do--based on their emotions--not the law. I mean they are going to do what they want to do even if it cost the city $10,000 in law suit. They are going to do what they want to do even if you spend 5 months in jail without ever being charged on a crime and it cost the city $100,000 in law suit. There were examples of this when I recently lived in Seattle. A guy was shooting pics of cops downtown, and they got all bent out of shape about it. They arrested the guy (on what charges I don't know) and then a few days later he was out of jail and awarded something around $10,000 in a civil penalty. Another article I read on the internet was about a guy who took shots of undercover cops with his cell phone. They took him to jail, and he was not released until he agreed to delete the pictures. So, be advised that is what you are dealing with when it comes to cops. Yes, they may have no legal right to demand you stop shooting pics, but they don't care and will take you to jail and/or delete the pictures. You certainly have a legitimate law suit for a violation of your civil rights, but is it worth a mere $4,000 to $10,000 and the price of hiring a lawyer?

I'd like to post about the 3 incidents I've had with the camera. And BTW, before I go out in public to do shooting (mostly football games) I pray, Lord be Lord of what this camera sees and what it takes a picture of. God be the God of my camera. You may think it's silly, but that is what I do. During those times I've never had a problem. The 3 times I did have a problem the shots either came up spontaneous or I didn't pray before I went to the event.

I'd like to share in 3 seperate post in this thread (with pictures) about each of those incidents.

 

[chillwolf]

Thanks for your response endzone. I for one would be interested in the incindents you mentioned. These rights of photographers are not just civil rights, these are also constitutional rights. And I know that people in authority are sometimes going to do what they want to do even though it is not legal.

 

[Endzone]

Here's an experience I had 2 years ago in Des Moines, WA which is a suburb of Seattle. This is at the Burger King restaurnt parking lot on Pacific Highway and 240th Street (Kent/Des Moines Road). I saw this whole thing unfold, and at first I thought it was a sting operation against Johns for prostitution solicitation. According to the Federal Way PD, it wasn't a "John" sting but a drug sting. Who knows. Anyway, I was parked in the parking lot right next to the restuarant itself and clearly out of the way of the operation. The camera was an Olympus C750 with X10 optical zoom that wasn't zoomed all the way in. I was in sequential shooting and as I started shooting I hear a voice out of the pack, "Please do not take pictures of undercover police officers". I'm not sure who it was. You can tell the guy holding the AR-15 doesn't like what I'm doing. But, there was also a female cop just to the right of me (not in the pictures) who said, "Yeah don't take pictures, we don't need that". Now, I wasn't in any way impeding their activites. I was beside my car right next to the restaurant. But what do you think would have happened if had turned 90 degrees and starting shooting pics of the female vice cop was in the undercover car? Those cops would have been all over me, and my civil rights would have gone out the window.

The funny thing is, about 6 months later I was crusing the same area about 400 yards down the road. To make a long story short, I got pulled over and the cop insisted on taking my picture! This was a Des Moines cop. I resisted that idea and turned my head even after he ordered me to look at him. I said I didn't want my picture taken. He took if from the side when I wouldn't look at him. He threatened to take me down to the police station if I didn't cooperate. My crime was failing to use my turn signal and stopping to talk to some girls for which I got 2 tickets. One was thrown out in court. So, these guys love to take video and pictures of us, but when the tables are turned they get all bent out of shape. So much for your civil rights in a police state.

 

[chillwolf]

Well I don't see too many undercover cops in those pics. All of them except one were in uniform, and the one had a jacket on clearly showing police on it.
I have never heard of a police officer wanting to take someone's photo for a traffic violation! Maybe it had something to do with the girls you were talking to. I hope they weren't "working women".

 

[Endzone]

Alright here was incident #2, and this was the most brutal of all. This was at a TCU vs. OSU baseball game in Ft. Worth, TX in May of this year. Whenever I go to a sporting event, I like to get shots of the ambience and the people rather than just shoot the players. The reasons for this are many. First, there are a slew of people down on the field with long lens cameras much better than mine to do that. Secondly, I like to post the pictures on the sports forums and the college kids and others are interested iseeing the fans and especially pretty girls.

Anyway, having said that I was shooting some pics of kids sliding down a short grassy hill near the baseball field. A Puerto Rican guy came up to me at got all in my face. He even thumped his chest against me, and told me he was going to take care of me himself. I did not take it very well, and I got right in his face back to him. I asked him what his problem was and if Uncle Julio molested him when he was a child. He said, "if that isn't your family you don't have a right to take pictures of those little girls". I told him I'd take a picture of whatever I felt like including him. Then he gets the TCU campus cop who could of been a relative of his for all I know. The TCU cop wants to go thorugh my pictures. I say OK, fine. The TCU cop (who was actually a detective) deletes about 10 pictures. I was in sequential shooting and when the kids raised up it did have the appearance that I was shooting pictures of their backsides. I ALWAYS shoot sequentially at sporting events in order to capture the best shot. Anyway, this cop did not understand this and he thought I was a perv. He told me to get away from the Puerto Rican (or he might have been Mexican) because he acknowledged the Puerto Rican claimed "He was going to take care of me himself". The cop knows the Puerto Rican said this, but does nothing to the Puerto Rican.

Well, towards the end of the game I go back near that same area to get a final shot of the scoreboard, and that's when the fireworks started. The TCU detective cop starts yelling at me, and he says he should have thrown me out the first time. Then he demands to see my driver's license. He claims that on private property (TCU campus) they have the right to arrest anybody for taking pictures. I am escorted out with cops walking about 10 yards behind me. As I get in my car to leave, the detective cop says if I ever come back again I will be arrested.

Well, that's it.

Here was the picture the Puerto Rican guy got all upset about

Here's my buddy detective Kelly Ham. He's not too happy with me at this point​

Photographers down on the field to cover the game

Lupton Stadium

Entire gallery:
http://www.pbase.com/craig_c/tcu_vs_osu

I don't know. I got pissed at detective Ham, and he got pissed at me. But he was WRONG to say that I was a porn perv there "shooting pictures of girls bottoms". I've shot hundreds of pictures of TCU games and never had a problem until this. It seems like there is a price to pay for getting people shots. I always tried to be careful and never posted pictures of people that weren't good shots. But in this internet age when a picture can go up on the internet for anyone to see, I guess people are somewhat paranoid. I guess this Ham guy had a right to throw me out of the game, but he was wrong about my intentions and so was that stupid azz Puerto Rican guy. And I call him "Puerto Rican" guy because I don't know how else to describe him. I have nothing peronally against Puerto Rican people. And, he might of been a Mexican guy for all I know. Anyway, that's it. Here's my photo share site with hundreds of pictures of TCU sporting events:

http://www.pbase.com/craig_c

 

[Endzone]

Well I don't see too many undercover cops in those pics. All of them except one were in uniform, and the one had a jacket on clearly showing police on it.
I have never heard of a police officer wanting to take someone's photo for a traffic violation! Maybe it had something to do with the girls you were talking to. I hope they weren't "working women".

Yeah, that area there south of Seattle is well known for that kind of thing. But the fact remains that for getting routine traffic tickets I had to submit to getting my picture taken because I was in that area. But, try to take pictures of cops and all hell breaks lose. And if you ever had video of a shooting or police abuse, you can bet that they would wrestle that video tape out of your camera and claim it as police evidence. In other words they would destroy if it showed them in a bad light. You could only get away with it if you did it in secret. That Rodney King video was shot in secret. That's the only way it made it to the national media. I'm just saying these cops are going to do as they please. You don't have any rights to video tape them or shoot pictures of them as far as they are concerned.

 

[similost]

Actually, on private property, you don't have the same rights concerning taking pictures, and you can be asked to leave at any time...

Around the DC area I try to be sure I do know my rights, and am careful about standing on private property when taking pictures, especially when I see security guards around.. Most of them don't know the laws, and like to be bullies.. So far I've never had a problem, but some day it's quite possible.. Lots of people have been harrassed in this area.

 

[Endzone]

Actually, on private property, you don't have the same rights concerning taking pictures, and you can be asked to leave at any time...

Around the DC area I try to be sure I do know my rights, and am careful about standing on private property when taking pictures, especially when I see security guards around.. Most of them don't know the laws, and like to be bullies.. So far I've never had a problem, but some day it's quite possible.. Lots of people have been harrassed in this area.

Yes, your quite right. But when you're at such a place as Texas Christian University and there are 40,000 other people there at the game, it doesn't seem like it is private property. It seems like more of a public setting. I doubt if the rules would be different if I was at a Univ. of Texas game. All it takes is for some jerk to accuse you of being in appropriate and the authorites are going to be automaticlly on the accuser's side--or so it seems to me--what do you think?

 

[similost]

Sadly, most people tend to error on the side of being safe, mostly to protect their selves... but problem is, they never stop to think about what if they are wrong...

 

[Endzone]

Here's the 3rd incident, but this one has a happy ending and is short. I drove over from Seattle almost exactly a year ago from today to see a Western Michigan vs. Idaho game. This was in podunk Moscow, Idaho. As I start frolicking about the campus shooting scenes of the tailgating, nearly all of the security cops come up and conduct an inquiry. But, these guys are very friendly. I explain that I drove over from Seattle, that I was a big MAC football fan and just liked to take pictures of the game to post on the fans sports forums. BTW, they would get hit up to 10,000 hits sometimes. Anyway, after some friendly chit-chat they let me carry on. As I was shoting different buildings on campus, I even noticed that the security cops in the cars would stop and check me out for about 10 seconds and then drive on. This was a very relaxed atmosphere, and people seem to be more trusting in smaller towns like this. Here's the "gallery".

http://www.pbase.com/craig_c/wmu_vs_idaho

 

[Endzone]

Sadly, most people tend to error on the side of being safe, mostly to protect their selves... but problem is, they never stop to think about what if they are wrong...

Yeah, I think there is a general heightened paranoia about public pictures after the 9/11 thing. And maybe also because of the internet. Maybe it's just human nature for people to be defensive too. So, how do you balance taking pictures when dealing with human beings?

I mean I try to look at it from their point of view too. What if I was at a company picnic at a nice state park or local park, and some strange looking guy comes over and starts shooting my beautiful 15 and 17 yo teen daughters? I mean I don't have any kids, but I mean hypothetically speaking. I wouldn't like it one bit. I would ask him what he was doing. But OTOH IMHO people are the most interesting subjects. There are only so many sunsets, birds, trees, etc. that I care to see. Throw people in those pictures, and now I'm interested again. I don't know. I guess in this age I was fortunate to get the people shots I was able to get. You have to walk a tightrope to do it I think--unless of course it's your own family.

I don't know. Ya'll can tell me if you think I'm out of line. I need people to be honest with me.

 

[similost]

I try to avoid taking pictures of people unless I ask.. I especially try to avoid taking pictures of girls, or kids.. It's just not worth the hassle even if you can get a special shot.. As an example, For these kinds of shots, I try to use a telephoto so it's not obvious to others... like I said.. just not worth the hassle, but as in the one with the stilt walkers, people seem to be acceptable of those..

I do have a picture of a small girl that was at this renfest, standing in costume by herself eating this giant cookie.. It's one of my wife's favorite pictures I've taken, and by far so much emotion in the picture... but, since I didn't ask the parents, I won't post it publicly either..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dc-duo/267373400/sizes/l/in/set-72157594324255778/

 

[Endzone]

I try to avoid taking pictures of people unless I ask.. I especially try to avoid taking pictures of girls, or kids.. It's just not worth the hassle even if you can get a special shot.. As an example, For these kinds of shots, I try to use a telephoto so it's not obvious to others... like I said.. just not worth the hassle, but as in the one with the stilt walkers, people seem to be acceptable of those..

I do have a picture of a small girl that was at this renfest, standing in costume by herself eating this giant cookie.. It's one of my wife's favorite pictures I've taken, and by far so much emotion in the picture... but, since I didn't ask the parents, I won't post it publicly either..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dc-duo/267373400/sizes/l/in/set-72157594324255778/

Yeah, you're much more conservative than me. But, to be honest, I've really cut back on taking pictures of hot women at places like TCU games. I did it mainly for the sake of the people who follow college sports. And of course I do think the pretty girls are very interesting subjects. You know, you see hundreds and thousands of pictures of your friends beautiful daughters and their friends and kids on Facebook. I guess that is because they believe it is safe to post on there. I would never dare post any of my friend's pictures in a public forum.

Here are some I've run into on public forums though. I didn't take any of these. Are they not interesting pictures?

Now, I've got to get some work done here.

 

[qpagoda]

Chillwolf, thanks for posting the photographer's rights pamphlet. I saw that somewhere else once. It primarily addresses photography on public property or non-owned private property. Why doesn't it address photography on property that the photographer owns? Because everyone understands that a photographer has a right to photograph ANYTHING he wishes on his own property. Ok, hidden cameras in bathrooms / bedrooms probably aren't allowed. I hope not anyway. The cop who "confronted" me never questioned my right to photograph even those trespassing kids. He just wanted to know who I was.

 

[chillwolf]

I try to avoid taking pictures of people unless I ask.. I especially try to avoid taking pictures of girls, or kids.. It's just not worth the hassle even if you can get a special shot.. As an example, For these kinds of shots, I try to use a telephoto so it's not obvious to others... like I said.. just not worth the hassle, but as in the one with the stilt walkers, people seem to be acceptable of those..

This is why I very seldom take pics of people in public. Too many paranoids out there! I would like to take pics of people in public, but like simi said, it's not worth the hassle. Now, if there is a very interesting shot I want to take with a person or persons in it, I will ask permission 1st.
And remember, you can not use a persons' likeness for monetary gain unless you get a model's release signed by them 1st.

 

[ACR-Ted]

Try being a railroad photographer like I am!! Talk about paranoia - I've actually had a rent-a-pig threaten to take the film out my camera while taking a photo of a train. I just said 'call some real police and see what happens' - he backed right off after that. I was on public property (a grade crossing) so there is no law against that. And I do not trespass at all - I always stay off RR property unless I have permission to be there.

I refuse to give up my hobby of 45 years of taking train photos...otherwise the terrorists and the police state will have won....

Ted

 

[chillwolf]

Try being a railroad photographer like I am!! Talk about paranoia - I've actually had a rent-a-pig threaten to take the film out my camera while taking a photo of a train. I just said 'call some real police and see what happens' - he backed right off after that. I was on public property (a grade crossing) so there is no law against that. And I do not trespass at all - I always stay off RR property unless I have permission to be there.

I refuse to give up my hobby of 45 years of taking train photos...otherwise the terrorists and the police state will have won....

Ted

It's usually the rent-a-cops and other types of security people who give photographers a hard time. That is because they are ignorant of our rights and like to flaunt what little bit of authority they have. You did the right thing by telling him to call the real cops.

 

[HarryB]

Yup I have run into the "Event Staff" rent-A-Cops at concerts before. I just happen to have an all access pass around my neck from my friend the promoter.We refer to them as "Glorified Peckerwoods". It is amazing when you flash an all access pass. They bend over backwards. If you are on private property at a concert venue the security can toss you out. I saw a photographer from a newspaper trying to get photos of Bob Dylan at a an outdoor festival for the Sunday paper literally get picked up by 2 LARGE roadies from Bob Dylans staff and get escorted back stage where they demanded his film. He spouted off about his rights and they said they did not care. It was in Bob Dylan's rider that there would be no photos taken of him by anyone.Period.
Of course if he had been discrete, He could probably have gotten away with it. He was sitting in the back with a 600mm F4 lens like he was shooting for Rolling Stone. It is kind hard to hide a 23 pound lens. He was just plain stoopid.

Harry