Pickering XV-15/1200e Thorens 166 ii TP62 alignment help

[Alfmonster]

I’ve recently acquired a Pickering XV15 1200e (without the brush) and attached it to my Td166 ii /TP62 tone arm.

I bought it lightly used — I’ve aligned it to the baerworld protractor via Vinyl Engine and have the vtf set to 1.25g.

Does anyone have any advice on aligning the XV15? It is kind of sweet but seems to be a little ‘muddy’ and not as nice as the AT140LC I had originally been using. So I compared the two and when I switched back to the AT140LC, although not as ‘full sounding’ on the lower end it sounded a lot clearer and much more pleasing to the ears.

Also I assumed that bc this was used/lightly used it wouldn’t need breaking in time - but could it be that maybe the stylus hasn’t been broken in? I’ve never had a cart/stylus that needed to be broken in — is this a normal characteristic of newer old stock cart/stylus?

I wanted to reach out to the AK community bc I’ve heard nothing but great things about the pairing of the Pickering XV15 1200e and the TP62 and am not familiar with the characteristics of the Pickering. Has anyone had any experience with this?

 

[Balifly]

I’ve recently acquired a Pickering XV15 1200e (without the brush) and attached it to my Td166 ii /TP62 tone arm.

I bought it lightly used — I’ve aligned it to the baerworld protractor via Vinyl Engine and have the vtf set to 1.25g.

Does anyone have any advice on aligning the XV15? It is kind of sweet but seems to be a little ‘muddy’ and not as nice as the AT140LC I had originally been using.

So I compared the two and when I switched back to the AT140LC, although not as ‘full sounding’ on the lower end it sounded a lot clearer and much more pleasing to the ears.

Welcome to the AK turn table forum.

The Pickering XV15 1200E has an elliptical stylus - 2 X 7 mil where as the Audio Technica AT140 LC has a line contact stylus - 1.5 × 0.28 mil.

The different in sound is to be expected.

 

[tnsilver]

It's one of Pickering's top models and should not sound muddy. It also has a an extremely compliant stylus, which makes it highly susceptible to mishandling damages and abuse. If the stylus grip is properly inserted all the way through I'm afraid there's a viable chance it's indeed worn out. On the bright side, due to the noticeably light VTF, it's sensitive to anti-skate settings so perhaps play around with that, trying to optimize performance.

 

[Alfmonster]

Thank you everyone for the replies! @tnsilver I didn’t realize that the 1200 stylus was so compliant and therefore easily susceptible to be damaged. I will play around with the antiskate. I’ll take a picture of it tomorrow and upload it to see if maybe you or anyone else can see anything out of the ordinary. I’m within my 30 days for return so any help would be greatly appreciated!

@Balifly that’s a great point, I never really thought of the difference in stylus. In the case that my Pickering stylus is not worn, what would be the sonic differences between the two stylus types?

 

[Balifly]

Thank you everyone for the replies!

@Balifly that’s a great point, I never really thought of the difference in stylus.

In the case that my Pickering stylus is not worn, what would be the sonic differences between the two stylus types?

The difference you heard is quite consistent with the sonic differences between the two type of stylus.

 

[tnsilver]

In the case that my Pickering stylus is not worn, what would be the sonic differences between the two stylus types?

it would be subtle b/c both are good carts but in a nut shell, fine line profiles ("micro-line" or 'ML' with AT) are advanced cuts designed to increase the stylus reading surface and to accurately extract more information out of the finer modulations (higher freq.). It's typically a detailed output and good carts utilize it so it's not too bright or analytical but rather balanced and enjoyable. Fine line styli are a bit harder to set up and require meticulous alignment. The down side is they also tend to emphasize imperfections like pops and clicks and should be used on clean vinyl in good shape. With a fine line stylus you could expect higher notes to be distinctively clear and detailed with cymbals decay, for example, lasting longer. You can also expect the disturbance of crackling, clicks and pops that are not so obvious with less advanced stylus profiles on not-so-good vinyl.

 

[DavidTT]

I used an XV-15 for several months and loved how dynamic that cartridge was. It was vibrant, for lack of a better term. I loved it but used it with an elliptical .3X.7 that I bought from TVOM and no matter how aligned could never stop hearing sibilance with it. I should have kept the cartridge and tried a different/better stylus but sold it later on. I have it on my unofficial to-do list to obtain another XV-15 or Stanton 681 and install something like a vivid line stylus to make it sing. Best of luck getting that cartridge sorted.

 

[Grenadeslio]

I used an XV-15 for several months and loved how dynamic that cartridge was. It was vibrant, for lack of a better term. I loved it but used it with an elliptical .3X.7 that I bought from TVOM and no matter how aligned could never stop hearing sibilance with it. I should have kept the cartridge and tried a different/better stylus but sold it later on. I have it on my unofficial to-do list to obtain another XV-15 or Stanton 681 and install something like a vivid line stylus to make it sing. Best of luck getting that cartridge sorted.

These cartridges are very intolerant of the improper arm. I also have the same cartridge/stylus on the same table and arm as the OP and find it to be the best I have for this table, not so much on my Grace arm. As you I couldn't get rid of the sybilance so back on the Thorens it went. Installed a Grace cartridge on the Grace arm and no sybilance issues, the Grados I have also worked nicely but the Grace/Grace combo is schveet.

The Pickerings also work nicely on my Mitsubishi DP-EC8, have my XV15 625E/625D on this table without any sybilance issues.

 

[Alfmonster]

@tnsilver after reading your post regarding the extreme sensitivity I have been tweaking the vtf on the Pickering reducing from 1.25 to 1.20 as well as tweaking the alignment - and it made a pretty significant change for the better.

I am still getting a bit of distortion on the treble end when it gets to the inner groves of the record - I’m guessing this may be the sibilence that @DavidTT had also mentioned? Would this be because of the baerworld arc I am using? Would this be better if I used the Stevenson?

I took some pictures earlier today and have uploaded four different angles of the cart/stylus.

The sound is different from the AT140LC - perhaps in the detail, but the sound resulting from the Pickering is growing on me - there is something really beautiful to it. The sounds on both are totally different — perhaps this is why people have many different carts/stylus’s? I’m realizing that the Pickering pairs better with certain records than the AT140LC and vice versa.

Thank you again everyone for taking the time to reply to my questions. Everyone’s feedback and answers have helped me so much.

 

[Alfmonster]

Looking at those photos, I wonder if it’s possible that the suspension has hardened over time. If you increase the tracking force, does the sibilance decrease?

That is really interesting — I had never thought about the suspension hardening over all of those years. I had read on one of the forums that the tracking force for the Pickering XV15 1200e could be pushed to anywhere between 1.20-1.25 due to its age. I had it at 1.25 which may have been a little too much. It is currently at 1.20g - maybe I’ll push it a little more to like 1.23g. For future reference, does the appearance of sibilance mean that the stylus needs more VTF?

I read in the original instructions (the attached pictures) that came with Pickering package that they recommended something under 1g.

@Grenadeslio out if curiosity, since you also have the same turntable and a lot more experience, what is the VTF do you have your tone arm set at?

 

[tnsilver]

I have been tweaking the vtf on the Pickering reducing from 1.25 to 1.20 as well as tweaking the alignment - and it made a pretty significant change for the better.

Well then... it sounds like you're on the right track doing the right thing. By the images you uploaded it appears (not necessarily true, just appears so) you may want to verify the stylus azimuth and possibly correct it:

Sibilance usually manifests by transforming clear 'S's' to something like 'Sssssssh...' and it sounds annoyingly harsh. You often get this going on inner grooves but IGD can also manifest as audible fuzziness. If you get sibilance all across the record - it's a stylus related issue, like wear down, geometry, VTF or anti-skate. If it's only going on with a specific record inner groove, it's likely IGD (which very often has nothing to do with us and is simply an engineering or manufacturing error) so try other records.

Baerwald alignment (Loefgren A) attempts to average out the tracking error across the entire record while Stevenson tries to optimize it specifically for where it's worst, in the inner grooves. If you pinpoint an issue with inner grooves - Stevenson may be a better alignment method for you.

 

[Alfmonster]

Well then... it sounds like you're on the right track doing the right thing. By the images you uploaded it appears (not necessarily true, just appears so) you may want to verify the stylus azimuth and possibly correct it:

Sibilance usually manifests by transforming clear 'S's' to something like 'Sssssssh...' and it sounds annoyingly harsh. You often get this going on inner grooves but IGD can also manifest as audible fuzziness. If you get sibilance all across the record - it's a stylus related issue, like wear down, geometry, VTF or anti-skate. If it's only going on with a specific record inner groove, it's likely IGD (which very often has nothing to do with us and is simply an engineering or manufacturing error) so try other records.

Baerwald alignment (Loefgren A) attempts to average out the tracking error across the entire record while Stevenson tries to optimize it specifically for where it's worst, in the inner grooves. If you pinpoint an issue with inner grooves - Stevenson may be a better alignment method for you.

The azimuth — that has been driving me insane. It’s like a tap to the left and it sounds off, a tap to the right and it’s sounds off again...and then when it sounds right I’ve thrown off the alignment so that it’s not calibrated with the arc. Do you have advice as to how you find the correct azimuth on these more rounded cartridges? The AT140LC has straighter lines so it was a bit easier.

I’ll try the Stevenson arc this afternoon -

On a side note, as always, thank you @tnsilver for taking the time to answer all of these questions and helping me so much.

 

[Grenadeslio]

That is really interesting — I had never thought about the suspension hardening over all of those years. I had read on one of the forums that the tracking force for the Pickering XV15 1200e could be pushed to anywhere between 1.20-1.25 due to its age. I had it at 1.25 which may have been a little too much. It is currently at 1.20g - maybe I’ll push it a little more to like 1.23g. For future reference, does the appearance of sibilance mean that the stylus needs more VTF?

I read in the original instructions (the attached pictures) that came with Pickering package that they recommended something under 1g.

@Grenadeslio out if curiosity, since you also have the same turntable and a lot more experience, what is the VTF do you have your tone arm set at?

Have mine set at 1 gram without the brush, sounds great on both the Thorens and Mitsubishi but no matter what I tried I couldn't get rid of the sybilance on the Grace arm. Really showed on the Van Halen 1984 album, completely unlistenable. The Grace arm will track anything I have with the Grace or Grado carts I have, but there just seems to be something not jelling with the Pickerings. I have two and they both exhibit this problem on the Grace arm.

This issue is what made me look into Grace cartridges in the first place. The Grado G1 with the 8MZ stylus I have was fine too but it just wasn't what I wanted or expected with all the rave reviews. First tried it in my Grado Blue cartridge, then the G1, again both were nice with the G1 being the better but not quite there if you know what I mean.

The Grace/Grace synergy can't be denied, but soon to have the Grado Platinum upgraded to a nude stylus so we'll see.

 

[Alfmonster]

Have mine set at 1 gram without the brush, sounds great on both the Thorens and Mitsubishi but no matter what I tried I couldn't get rid of the sybilance on the Grace arm. Really showed on the Van Halen 1984 album, completely unlistenable. The Grace arm will track anything I have with the Grace or Grado carts I have, but there just seems to be something not jelling with the Pickerings. I have two and they both exhibit this problem on the Grace arm.

This issue is what made me look into Grace cartridges in the first place. The Grado G1 with the 8MZ stylus I have was fine too but it just wasn't what I wanted or expected with all the rave reviews. First tried it in my Grado Blue cartridge, then the G1, again both were nice with the G1 being the better but not quite there if you know what I mean.

The Grace/Grace synergy can't be denied, but soon to have the Grado Platinum upgraded to a nude stylus so we'll see.

1 gram! Thank you @Grenadeslio - Okay I’ll try that later this afternoon.

I’ll have to look into the grace tonearm/grace cart-stylus . I’ve heard a lot of great things about them - and I’m very curious. It’s kind of a bummer that there isn’t a place where you can hear all of these vintage equipment combinations. And you kinda just have to go all in and buy it to hear it.

 

[Grenadeslio]

1 gram! Thank you @Grenadeslio - Okay I’ll try that later this afternoon.

I’ll have to look into the grace tonearm/grace cart-stylus . I’ve heard a lot of great things about them - and I’m very curious. It’s kind of a bummer that there isn’t a place where you can hear all of these vintage equipment combinations. And you kinda just have to go all in and buy it to hear it.

I'm surprised you're having any issues with this on the Thorens table. Mine are sporting NOS stylus, not aftermarket, I think you posted the same.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Just looked at your pictures again, VTA looks way off, looks like you need to lower the arm, realign the cart, and then reset VTF, I believe this will also rotate the whole setup bringing the azimuth also into alignment.

Do you have any pictures with the stylus on a record from the side?

Edit
Ok, forgot your table has a different arm than mine, then all bets are off, could be you're just experiencing the same poor symmetry issue I was with the Grace and there's just no fixing it other than switching cartridges. I have both the 1200 like you and the 625 both with NOS stylus and neither worked on the Grace. I really wanted them to, one because the 1200 is one of my favorites, and two because I already had both of them lol.

 

[Alfmonster]

Just looked at your pictures again, VTA looks way off, looks like you need to lower the arm, realign the cart, and then reset VTF, I believe this will also rotate the whole setup bringing the azimuth also into alignment.

Do you have any pictures with the stylus on a record from the side?

Edit
Ok, forgot your table has a different arm than mine, then all bets are off, could be you're just experiencing the same poor symmetry issue I was with the Grace and there's just no fixing it other than switching cartridges. I have both the 1200 like you and the 625 both with NOS stylus and neither worked on the Grace. I really wanted them to, one because the 1200 is one of my favorites, and two because I already had both of them lol.

An update: you were right! After reading your posts, I purchased one of those acrylic blocks to measure the azimuth and the VTA and it turns out that the VTA was way off. Over the last couple days, I’ve been tweaking the cart placement - and adjusting the VTA so the arm sits parallel to the record and both Pickering and the AT both sounds great. I think I’ve hit the general vicinity of the sweet spot (for now) on my Pickering using the Stevenson alignment at about 1.23g. Thank you again everyone for taking the time help me with this.