Pilot SA-232 Pre-amp Recommendations

[Flounder]

Hi, All.
As the subject states, I'm looking for Preamp recommendations for a Pilot 232. I realize (from reading here) that the SP-210 from Pilot is the ideal mate, but finding one is nearly impossible, and if one showed up, I'd probably have to mortgage my house to afford it. I'm also wondering how different the preamp in the Pilot 240 is from a SP-210. Does anyone know? And could I use a 240 as a preamp for the 232? Would I want to do that? And lastly, would a SS preamp (pls dont flame me. i'm trying to learn) sound good? Or is that blasphemy? I'm listening mostly to vinyl, but also use a CD player too.

Thanks. I appreciate the input.

 

[primosounds]

Hi Flounder, I don't have any Pilot preamps, so, i can not help you there. But i do have a couple of integrated amps. The Pilot has a very good sound quality that is very listenable and enjoyable. I am not a fan of vintage preamps as they have too many features which can compromise sound quality. I prefer a modern preamp without tone controls and filters that is a much "straighter" signal path. To me that seems to bring out the strengths of the tube amp. For my tastes a vintage tubed preamp is "too much of a good thing". As with all component matching, there are many variables, and room and speaker compatibility must also be taken into account.

 

[mcgjohn]

quite a few options out there. You did not mention what your budget was. But would tend to agree with Primosounds, many of the vintage tube pre amps, had filters and also many have a ton of interstage coupling caps in them. Many of the classic vintage preamps (think Mac, and Marantz) demand really high price points. What about something like a CJ PV5? Very musical and easy to listen to. Or if you are really on a budget, some of the Chinese tube preamps are decent sounding.

I have a number of Pilot, Fisher and Scott amps in my collection, but use all modern tube preamps to drive them.

One other thought since you mentioned you listen to mainly vinyl, check out the EAR 834p with a volume control on it, or if that is too much, check out the Chinese copy for 360 bucks from Doukmall....I have not had one apart, but looks like a dead ringer for copying the EAR.

best of luck to you.

J

 

[Flounder]

Thanks for the replies. I havent decided on a budget (I know that's not fair), and I'm in a spare bedroom using KLH Model 6s or Wharfedale W60s (the original - no letter suffix) as speakers. I'm just putting feelers out to see what's possible and what some may be using - just trying to get an idea what to use.

 

[tubeactive]

Great amp, the 232, any version...Sonic character is very detailed with a little warmth. This is not your average, sweet and detailed sounding EL-84 amp. The phase inverter, known as paraphase, has been accused of creating a "fast" sound with this amp. Yes, this amp does sound fast...

I have restored, fixed and used a few of these 232s. There were at least two versions, probably three or four including the unpainted, aluminum chassis from the console versions. As a stand alone amp, some jumpering is needed at that rare, 11 pin socket. The natural preamp mate is, of course the 210, which has been undervalued for some time. The Pilot 210 is quite rare to find these days. More of the console versions show up, with the "stand-up" fascia. They have the same circuitry inside as the beautiful, golden face and surround, lying down, non-console version. If you do run into a 210 console version, or any affordable 210, you will benefit from building a separate power supply for the 210.

Being aware that the 232 can be accused of not being too warm or too sweet sounding, many classic tube preamps are very good partners. An upgraded Dyna PAS is a good start. Instant step-ups can be had with slightly greater investment. Before springing for an expensive Marantz 7, consider an EICO HF-85 or the more expensive Lafayette KT-600. My fave classic is the HF-85; very versatile with a fantastic phono and very capable line stage. I did use a 232 with a late '70s Paragon E preamp for a while, but preferred the "sweeter" sound of the KT-600 or HF-85.

Modern or antique matters not...Great, quality sound can be had with all old, some new, some even solid state, even all new. Which phono stage do you now use ? Do you have a vintage mono disc collection ? The reasoning is simple...Only you can decide which you prefer. If you like a very detailed, "neutral" sound, the 232 amp is for you. If so, the preamp choices are greater, as you might actually prefer a solid state phono stage, or a more modern full function preamp. I had good results with Phase Linear 2000, 4000 and Harmon Kardon Citation A sand state preamps. The Phase Linear 2000 is quite a sleeper, BTW...

Some friends totally enjoy their Apt Holman preamp used with their tube amps. If you like the early mono discs, switchable phono EQ becomes desired. Here, the Lafayette KT-600 or a Pilot 210 would be a clear winner. If you strictly listen with stereo LPs, you would only need the "standard" RIAA phono EQ.

Concerning using a Pilot 240 integrated as a preamp is really not a great idea. Amps usually run at much higher voltages than most preamps. So, taking away the tube integrated amp's power amp stage, will have the voltages very high, indeed. That will require voltage dropping methods in the power supply to get the preamp stage "just right." Speaking of "just right," I wish the Pilot 210 actually had a good mono switch. With the 210, you can choose Stereo, Stereo Reverse, Mono L or Mono R, but not Mono L+R ! What were the designers thinking ? Well, they designed a great sounding preamp with calibrated tone controls. Plus, they got the math correct with their phono stage. The Tape Head input can easily be rewired for a dedicated phono input, with the phono EQ of your choice. If you can decipher that wiring, you can also figure how to make a true L+R mono mode connection if needed...

 

[Flounder]

Wow! Thanks for the detail.

Sonic character is very detailed with a little warmth. This is not your average, sweet and detailed sounding EL-84 amp

This was my very first observation. Compared to my little 240, this definitely is not as fat (for lack of better words) sounding. However, it is very detailed. I haven't spent a lot of time with it yet, but that's my initial impression. Are there certain tubes that will make it a little fatter and warmer? Or is that the nature of the beast - to be "fast" and detailed?

 

[tubeactive]

Sure, tube rolling can help attain a juicier sound. Sweet sounding 12AX7s, like ribbed plate Telefunken over smooth plate Tellees, large plate Mullard and Amperex over short plates, Sovtek 12AX7LPS are usually enjoyable, but YMMV... The 12AU7 is the input tube, thus sonic character can vary greatly with choice. Again, the larger plate varieties usually please.

Tube rolling gets very personal, as it should. Your sonic perspectives are unique to you. While I like a 3D depth of sound behind the speakers, which I see as forming the front of the stage, many soundmen like the sound of presence, forward of the speakers. I can tolerate forward; I just prefer more depth, like the theater sound...Some exotic Mullard ECC83/12AX7s, like box plate CV-4004 or M8137 sound incredibly juicy, yet present a forward sound in my systems. Guitarists seem to love that forward sound, that "out of the box" sound. YMMV...

Now, let's talk EL84s or 7189s. The Pilots run hot. Most very vintage EL84s can handle it. Genuine, vintage 7189s can take the heat even better. Fortunately, many 7189 types sound lovely. There is the new Sovtek EL84M, derived from the genuine 6N14N-EB, 6P14P-EV, ER, EP varieties. There is a "translation" difference in the USSR printed tube type, (so beware and study up....) but these are all known to sound delicious to many. The newer EL84M has the newer "scoop" looking getter top, as opposed to the original's halo getter type. Standard Sovtek EL84s are also rugged and sound nice. Do not underestimate the possibility that you might prefer the newer varieties to the expensive old stock. Also, you might want to try those vintage, Japan sourced 7189s and 7189As if you can find them...

You can definitely obtain sweet, fast and detailed sound from your 232. How about the last four coupling caps inside the amp, connected to the EL84 grids ? They should be refreshed by now and sound character can vary immensely among capacitor types. Because the 232 does run hot, inside and out, the polystyrene type coupling cap is not recommended. Actually, many of the more modern plasticized caps can sound bright. You might prefer the older, genuine Sprague orange drop polyester/paper types over the polypropylene or polycarbonate types. Teflons can take over a hundred of hours of passing music usage before sounding right. The older mylar/polyester might sound fantastic in only a few hours...I avoid the smaller looking, metalized caps when possible. They take longer to break-in and I like to enjoy the spinning discs quickly...

 

[Flounder]

Thanks, Tubeactive. Here's some shots of the caps. It looks like they were replaced. I'm interested in your opinion. What do you think. Are these any good? Or could the 232 benefit from different ones?

 

[tubeactive]

Looks like some nice work and a job still in progress.... Nice to see the power supply caps, the cans, were replaced. Those bright yellow, plastic cased, unbranded caps marked 104K/630V look beefy and are definitely not metalized types. They look like the "film and foil" construction and might be decent sounding, but those original, wax coated Good-All .047 caps could benefit from replacement. If it sounds okay, let's move onto the tubes...

The GZ34 looks very nice. Do all the EL84s look the same, with the same structure up top, near the chrome ? Which 12AX7 and AU7 tubes are plugged in ? Before getting matched, premium coupling caps in there, maybe you should ascertain tube quality. If you are stocked with "choice" tubes and are dissatisfied with the sound character, then maybe consider some upgraded coupling caps. Then again, I think the tube rolling will get you some nice tunes...ENJOY !

 

[Flounder]

The person I bought it from said the GZ34 was a Japanese clone of a Mullard rectifier. I'll snaps some pics tonight when I get home. The AU7 is a tube labeled IEC Mullard, and the 12AX7s are a bit hard to read, but look to be RCA (orange labels, gray plates). I had two matched JJ EL84s that I put in one channel and two that are Hammond labeled in the other (I think those were made by Amprex according to the markings). I've got a stash of tubes that I use for my guitar amps. It came with newer Russian tubes (I'll snap pics of them too) I also have a couple 12AU7s from a '72 Fender Deluxe Reverb that I could try too. They're labeled Fender but I dont know who made them for Fender. You're definitely right about tube rolling - I noticed a big difference when I added the JJs to one channel. They're a little more aggressive, but still sound really nice. Overall it's very detailed and super clean sounding. Thanks for the replies - this is really cool stuff and right now I'm like a sponge willing to learn as much as possible so yours and everyone's replies are super helpful. Thanks so much.