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Pioneer SX-1250 vs Kenwood KR-9600

Someone in Grand Rapids, MI is dumping three 1250's;

PIONEER SX 1250-165 WPC receiver, 3 available at $400.00. Polk RT 800 I floorstanding speakers, $400.00/best. McIntosh XRT-5, $500.00. McIntosh ML1C speakers, new woofers and mids, $400.00. (616)784-4902.
Published in Grand Rapids Press on 04/10
:wtf:
 
Originally posted by Lefty
Gang;

I would like to throw out a frequent counter argument to the 'modify it to make it sound better' theory offered by EC and others.

A down side to modifiying a top of the line peice of equipment is the effect on possible resale value on a highly desirable collectable model. Many e-bay listings will state that the unit has no signs of modifications as a attribute for the unit, and I bet that a modified unit, if mentioned, is most likely to get fewer bidders or lower bids on the most seriously collected models. Hell look how high some pay for 'never opened' boxed equipment when they do sometimes show up! <snip>

I just ask you to ask yourself that if you were in the market for a Marantz 2600 receiver and you see two near identical e-bay listings where one has had modifications to it and one is stated to be unmodified, which one would you be more likely to bid market price on?

Lefty
A valid point, however, the 'modifications' I have discussed here are nothing more than a replacement of the original electrolytic capacitors (adding additional PS filter caps would indeed fall into the 'modification' catagory, but let's set that aside for now). Opening up the unit, it would take a quite knowledgeable technician to see that anything had actually been done (your average stereo shop repair guy wouldn't have a clue that anything had been done). I would even strongly argue the idea of labling it a modification. Would you be tempted to state that a receiver was 'modified' if someone had replaced a fatigued fuse? ..or even if blown output transistors had been replaced? How about a tube amp that has new tubes installed? Indeed, I feel the tube analogy is probably the most apt, since we all know tubes have a limited life.

A 'modification', to me, is changing the original design in some significant way to achieve a desired result. Electrolytic capacitors are unique in solid state gear as the only device which actually have a rated lifespan. The higher the voltage and temperature applied to these devices, the shorter the lifespan. Additionally, the quality of new devices, particularly electrolytic caps, are light-years beyond the devices available to manufacturers in the 70's, as electrolytic chemistry has progressed through 5 or 6 significant generational leaps and bounds since then. The standard Panasonic FC capacitor that I use would have been an audio engineer's wet dream in 1975. My KR-9600 is a stock receiver with new electrolytics and an upgraded opamp. Not modified at all. Were I to sell it (which I won't), only the technically ignorant would be concerned about something like a replacement of the original electrolytics. If I sold it to anyone who knows me and the work I do, it would only bring a higher price :D As a last side-note, I am not fond of doing anything that cannot actually be undone

Your argument is also based on a faulty assumption of resale value. The biggest problem I have with this is looking at the equipment and seeing dollar signs instead of a treble clef ;) It's about the music, not the money. I also suggested that this is something to consider only for gear which has found a permanent home.

OK...to finish up my rant, I agree with you that doing something like adding additional power supply filtering or a soft-start circuit should probably be carefully considered, and in most cases should probably not be done. OTOH, replacing worn out components that no longer meet specifications not only makes sense but is necessary in order to allow the gear to sound as it was intended to sound. :rant:
 
I'm also curious to know more about how the "80" Series, SX-1980.....480 Line of 1978-80 compares to the "50" Series Line of 1976-77. In other words, how does an SX-1280 compare directly to a SX-1250?? Is it just the addition of the power meters? (which is about the only thing that the SX-1250 does NOT have).

I could also ask the same thing about how the next Line, SX-3900....SX-3400 of 1980-81 compares but judging from the SX-3900 I had for a brief time, I think the answer is quite apparent that the cost cutting was rather noticeable- or atleast it is very much so in comparing the SX-3600 I have to the SX-780 I also have- the SX-780 is MUCH more substantially built as Ive mentioned on this site before- the SX-3600 I only have because it was a mere 25 bucks- and its fine for lite duty to power my computer speakers when I want to hear the radio in the background or watch tv/vcr/dvd on the computer.

I also have an SX-980 and I think this model is built and sounds better than the SX-3900, thus why I kept the SX-980 and parted with the SX-3900. The SX-3900 was the followup top of the Line model that succeded the mighty SX-1980- I certainly dont think anyone would claim the SX-3900 is better than an SX-1980.
 
And if someone wants to compare Pioneer w/ Sansui, howza bout also comparing integrated amps instead of receivers, such as the Pioneer SA model amps and Sansui AU model amps. I think that would be interesting also.
 
BeatleFred, ship 'em out to me and I'll be glad to do a comparison :) Regarding the integrated's, most around here seem to be receiver fans. I have always had separates...the KR-9600 is my first receiver, but after a few mods and tweaks I'm pretty impressed.

NightWolf, I spent 20 minutes composing a PM to you concerning the Sansui...only to have it be rejected and lost (what's up with that, Moderators???) because your PM is full. Either shoot me a PM with your email, or clean your PM inbox and let me know. :mad:
 
Originally posted by EchoWars
BeatleFred, ship 'em out to me and I'll be glad to do a comparison :) Regarding the integrated's, most around here seem to be receiver fans. I have always had separates...the KR-9600 is my first receiver, but after a few mods and tweaks I'm pretty impressed.

NightWolf, I spent 20 minutes composing a PM to you concerning the Sansui...only to have it be rejected and lost (what's up with that, Moderators???) because your PM is full. Either shoot me a PM with your email, or clean your PM inbox and let me know. :mad:

Sorry to hear about that :(

You can always use the e-mail link in my profile, but that is the frst time I ever had a PM fault..... my inbox isn't full either.

My e-mail address is InoventionsEast@optonline.net, you can always send me a e-mail.

I am at my fothers this weekend, which means I wont be logged on too much let alone check my mail (I'll check it, but I don't care for the Web Mail service- pretty cheap)

Let me know though, it would probally be a better idea to send a e-mail, to avoid another PM trouble
 
Thread-Bump

Because EW has much to say, said it well in 2003, it's valid and applicable in 2009, and will be in the year 2525.*






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*that's just a lyric reference, not a literal prediction... :D
 
Thread-Bump

Because EW has much to say, said it well in 2003, it's valid and applicable in 2009, and will be in the year 2525.*






-
*that's just a lyric reference, not a literal prediction... :D

Will Man still be alive to worry about it?
 
Thanks for bumping this old thread.
I was waiting to see if EW had anything to append 5 years down the road.
Judging by the quantity of both receivers still around ( assuming it is not the 12 fruitcake theory that they just keep getting passed to someone else), they were a sales and engineering design success story.
FWIW: I prefer the looks of the KR-9600 and thought EW was a bit harsh on the FM section of the 9600.
 
The audio section of the 9600 was designed with a 'good 'nuf' mindset, and is crippled by the stock output opamp. It is not terribly difficult to rectify this. My 9600 is currently using the National Semiconductor LME49860 at the tuner output, but another fine choice would be the TI/Burr-Brown OPA2132P.

A criticism that I neglected to aim at the SX-1250 was the use of a single puny 4PDT speaker relay. The KR-9600 uses two of these 4PDT relays...one for each channel.
 
I need to fire up my laptop and dig around in the 9400's manual to see if it suffers from the same opamp issue as the 9600, or if that was avoided through the use of older, brute-force technology that the 9400 is known for (that is, for the few of us that know what a KR-9400 is, considering that it hides in the 9600's shadow). I don't have any complaints about the FM sound quality of the unit, so my first guess is that it doesn't have the opamp problem.

I would love to hear more about the addition of the soft-start circuit to the big Kenwood receivers. As you might remember, I got my KR-9400 in a junk pile because the active side of the DPDT switch had vaporized. Moving the wires to the other side and turning the toggle over (it limits the switch to DPST movement) fixed the issue, but I want to make sure that the switch never incinerates again.
 
interesting review EW, I think after 30 years it compliment on both how they handled the ravages of time and heat. and i think getting a 1250 for 300 bucks is a gift that keeps on giving. and any investment on restoration is money well spent. if people would track the money they waste for a month, i am sure they could find a way to make it happen.
 
Late reply because of the Fest, but a direct swap might not be the way to go...the original opamp is not likely installed with bypassing, which needs to be done to help prevent oscillation. Moreover, the new opamp *might* allow you to remove some coupling caps. As far as what to use, the OPA2132P might be good in the preamp.

The phono also uses an opamp, but I'm not sure that the 2132P is the best solution. I'd need to look over the circuit again.
 
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