Pioneer SX-5590 Relay & Lamp Blinking Issues
- Thread starter basicblues
- Start date
Oh $#!!.....
Pull the outputs, all of them and DMM diode test them. Mark exactly where each comes from, one channel may not be affected. Also other parts connected to it may be destroyed.
You will have to test the drivers as well.
This may benefit from professional help at this point.
Pull the outputs, all of them and DMM diode test them. Mark exactly where each comes from, one channel may not be affected. Also other parts connected to it may be destroyed.
You will have to test the drivers as well.
This may benefit from professional help at this point.
basicblues
Well-Known Member
Removed and tested all the output power transistors, here are the results...
PNP: 2SB600
black lead to base, red lead to collector, result = 531/538/524/498
black lead to base, red lead to emitter, result = 539/547/523/499
red lead to base, black lead to collector, result = OL/OL/OL/OL
red lead to base, black lead to emitter, result = OL/OL/OL/OL
black lead to emitter, red lead to collector, result = OL/OL/001/001
red lead to emitter, black lead to collector, result = OL/OL/001/001
NPN: 2SB555
black lead to base, red lead to collector, result = OL/OL/OL/OL
black lead to base, red lead to emitter, result = OL/OL/OL/OL
red lead to base, black lead to collector, result = 554/554/554/557
red lead to base, black lead to emitter, result = 558/559/552/560
black lead to emitter, red lead to collector, result = OL/OL/OL/OL
red lead to emitter, black lead to collector, result = OLOL/OL/OL
PNP: 2SB600
black lead to base, red lead to collector, result = 531/538/524/498
black lead to base, red lead to emitter, result = 539/547/523/499
red lead to base, black lead to collector, result = OL/OL/OL/OL
red lead to base, black lead to emitter, result = OL/OL/OL/OL
black lead to emitter, red lead to collector, result = OL/OL/001/001
red lead to emitter, black lead to collector, result = OL/OL/001/001
NPN: 2SB555
black lead to base, red lead to collector, result = OL/OL/OL/OL
black lead to base, red lead to emitter, result = OL/OL/OL/OL
red lead to base, black lead to collector, result = 554/554/554/557
red lead to base, black lead to emitter, result = 558/559/552/560
black lead to emitter, red lead to collector, result = OL/OL/OL/OL
red lead to emitter, black lead to collector, result = OLOL/OL/OL
are we to assume that the rest of the measurements on each of the transistors are OL ?
The most important is the collector to emitter in both directions, and that they are OL. Of course, the tester's voltage won't hold a candle to REAL operating voltages.
pulled from an old post:
first the PNP:
black lead to base, red lead to collector, result = 675
black lead to base, red lead to emitter, result = 688
red lead to base, black lead to collector, result = OL = No conduction
red lead to base, black lead to emitter, result = OL = No conduction
black lead to emitter, red lead to collector, result = OL = No conduction
red lead to emitter, black lead to collector, result = OL = No conduction
next the NPN:
black lead to base, red lead to collector, result = OL = No conduction
black lead to base, red lead to emitter, result = OL = No conduction
red lead to base, black lead to collector, result = 677
red lead to base, black lead to emitter, result = 680
black lead to emitter, red lead to collector, result = OL = No conduction
red lead to emitter, black lead to collector, result = OL = No conduction
you can also check the 8 emitter resistors (0.5 ohm, 5 watt) and 4 base resistors (4.7 ohms 1 watt).
With those 8 transistors out, the sockets are no doubt hanging in midair, so powering on is a no-no until all have been secured AND INSULATED from everything. Be very careful of the bias diodes connected to the heatsinks. There are two diodes, one is obvious, the other may be mounted to a heatsink on the amp board with the driver transistors.
edit: I see the amp board and the transistor connections are connectorized, good... pull the connectors.
R26 and R27 (1k ohm) with the driver transistors (2sb630,2sd610)do form a dc feedback path for the amplifier, so you may want to try powering it up without the outputs in place OR ANY LOADS ( ** NO ** speakers etc...).
BUT wait a day or two for objections to this procedure to be registered here!!!
Just in case I'm missing something. The drivers also run off of the main DC for the outputs, but that much current through them should leave obvious burn marks!!
If it is ok, the protection should click, and you can CAREFULLY measure the output's base voltages at either the empty socket or at the four base resistors R37 & R37 4.7 ohms 1 watt.
ALL this should be done with a dim bulb tester inline, to limit damage. The rectifiers or the BIG caps could have shorted in the main output power. Like EW says, there aren't many places that pass enough juice to blow a 12 amp fuse.
edit: I see the amp board and the transistor connections are connectorized, good... pull the connectors.
R26 and R27 (1k ohm) with the driver transistors (2sb630,2sd610)do form a dc feedback path for the amplifier, so you may want to try powering it up without the outputs in place OR ANY LOADS ( ** NO ** speakers etc...).
BUT wait a day or two for objections to this procedure to be registered here!!!
Just in case I'm missing something. The drivers also run off of the main DC for the outputs, but that much current through them should leave obvious burn marks!!
If it is ok, the protection should click, and you can CAREFULLY measure the output's base voltages at either the empty socket or at the four base resistors R37 & R37 4.7 ohms 1 watt.
ALL this should be done with a dim bulb tester inline, to limit damage. The rectifiers or the BIG caps could have shorted in the main output power. Like EW says, there aren't many places that pass enough juice to blow a 12 amp fuse.
basicblues
Well-Known Member
I went back and double checked those outputs and 2 of them had different readings [.001v] other than "OL". I just edited my previous post with the additional figures.
1. That makes more sense
2. OUCH.........
3. current flowed from the negative supply, through the shorted pnp transistors. From there it either went through the speakers or the corresponding npn transistors to complete the circuit and blow the fuse. Thus I wouldn't be too trusting of the corresponding NPN transistors.
The bright side is that 8 on-semi (4x)mj21194 & (4x)mj21194 transistors are about 32 bucks, and the reciever will really be set up.... and symmetrical. And I suspect that this will be your major expense on the repair.
4. Check those 4.7 ohm base resistors and .5 ohm emitter resistors carefully.
5. then test those driver transistors, but if the 4.7 ohm base resistors are ok, they have a better chance of survival. Also test all the diodes on the board.
6. Of course we have to find out WHY they blew, once we get the damage repaired.
2. OUCH.........
3. current flowed from the negative supply, through the shorted pnp transistors. From there it either went through the speakers or the corresponding npn transistors to complete the circuit and blow the fuse. Thus I wouldn't be too trusting of the corresponding NPN transistors.
The bright side is that 8 on-semi (4x)mj21194 & (4x)mj21194 transistors are about 32 bucks, and the reciever will really be set up.... and symmetrical. And I suspect that this will be your major expense on the repair.
4. Check those 4.7 ohm base resistors and .5 ohm emitter resistors carefully.
5. then test those driver transistors, but if the 4.7 ohm base resistors are ok, they have a better chance of survival. Also test all the diodes on the board.
6. Of course we have to find out WHY they blew, once we get the damage repaired.
basicblues
Well-Known Member
I had my camera close by so I've included a few reference photo's:
RIGHT: AWH-108
LEFT: AWH-108
AWR-106 (3 Photo's)
AWM-091
Three of the 4.7 ohm base resistors measured 5.0 ohms and the other 3.1 ohms. All but one of the .5 emitter resistors measured .7 ohms with the other reading .8 ohms.
Haven't had a chance yet to test the driver transistors yet but will have time to check this afternoon. I feel sure it would be best to remove the transistors to accurately test since other parts affect the measurement but can I get a decent measurement with them installed?
All of the diodes I checked had a measurable reading (I didn't record the exact measurements) except these D10 D6 D11 D7 which read OL. All the measurements were taken with these parts still installed on the circuit board.
No burn trail anywhere or obvious soot except at the base of the 220uf80v capacitors on the AWR-106 board which I'm not sure if it can be distinguished in the photo's above.
RIGHT: AWH-108
LEFT: AWH-108
AWR-106 (3 Photo's)
AWM-091
Three of the 4.7 ohm base resistors measured 5.0 ohms and the other 3.1 ohms. All but one of the .5 emitter resistors measured .7 ohms with the other reading .8 ohms.
Haven't had a chance yet to test the driver transistors yet but will have time to check this afternoon. I feel sure it would be best to remove the transistors to accurately test since other parts affect the measurement but can I get a decent measurement with them installed?
All of the diodes I checked had a measurable reading (I didn't record the exact measurements) except these D10 D6 D11 D7 which read OL. All the measurements were taken with these parts still installed on the circuit board.
No burn trail anywhere or obvious soot except at the base of the 220uf80v capacitors on the AWR-106 board which I'm not sure if it can be distinguished in the photo's above.
Test both the transistors and diodes out of circuit.
The diodes should be like 600 one way and OL on the other.
I just lift one leg of the diodes....
The diodes should be like 600 one way and OL on the other.
I just lift one leg of the diodes....
basicblues
Well-Known Member
Almost finished with the diode & transistor test results and should be able to post soon. Thanks again for your assistence...
basicblues
Well-Known Member
Here's the diode & transistors results, I probably could have just said they all checked good but I decided to post the voltages. Let me know where to go form here and whether or not to reinstall these components.
RIGHT: AWH-108
D10= 626v
D6 = 609v
D11 = 603v
D7 = 607v
D4 = 569v
D3 = 580v
D5 = 636v
D8 = 644v
D9 = 640v
Q9 = 605/599v
Q7 = 720/712v
Q10 = 611/597v
Q8 = 720/693v
Q4 = 732/721v
Q3 = 724/710v
Q5 = 707/675v
Q11 = 723/710v
Q1 = 718/712v
Q2 = 726/718v
Q6 = 710/691v
LEFT: AWH-108
D10= 602v
D6 = 594v
D11 = 584v
D7 = 584v
D4 = 581v
D3 = 581v
D5 = 635v
D8 = 642v
D9 = 653v
Q9 = 602/600v
Q7 = 711/700v
Q10 = 580/565v
Q8 = 714/688v
Q4 = 733/724v
Q3 = 730/720v
Q5 = 715/700v
Q11 = 732/724v
Q1 = 727/716v
Q2 = 725/715v
Q6 = 712/700v
RIGHT: AWH-108
D10= 626v
D6 = 609v
D11 = 603v
D7 = 607v
D4 = 569v
D3 = 580v
D5 = 636v
D8 = 644v
D9 = 640v
Q9 = 605/599v
Q7 = 720/712v
Q10 = 611/597v
Q8 = 720/693v
Q4 = 732/721v
Q3 = 724/710v
Q5 = 707/675v
Q11 = 723/710v
Q1 = 718/712v
Q2 = 726/718v
Q6 = 710/691v
LEFT: AWH-108
D10= 602v
D6 = 594v
D11 = 584v
D7 = 584v
D4 = 581v
D3 = 581v
D5 = 635v
D8 = 642v
D9 = 653v
Q9 = 602/600v
Q7 = 711/700v
Q10 = 580/565v
Q8 = 714/688v
Q4 = 733/724v
Q3 = 730/720v
Q5 = 715/700v
Q11 = 732/724v
Q1 = 727/716v
Q2 = 725/715v
Q6 = 712/700v
Again I am forced to assume that all the missing readings were "OL" and all were done with the correct leads.
In that case they all look good, but under operating conditions, the story can be different. I have had many times where transistors tested good outside, yet when returned to operation they failed, some immediately.
But at least we know none are blown up right now.
I had some outputs recently that tested fine, then were fine at + / - 30v, but when they got their normal + / - 60v they leaked at ampere levels massively, subsequently they tested GOOD again upon removal again.
Something caused those outputs to go. I tend to lean away from massive replacements, but if you are game, I'll work up a list of reasonable replacements.
In that case they all look good, but under operating conditions, the story can be different. I have had many times where transistors tested good outside, yet when returned to operation they failed, some immediately.
But at least we know none are blown up right now.
I had some outputs recently that tested fine, then were fine at + / - 30v, but when they got their normal + / - 60v they leaked at ampere levels massively, subsequently they tested GOOD again upon removal again.
Something caused those outputs to go. I tend to lean away from massive replacements, but if you are game, I'll work up a list of reasonable replacements.
basicblues
Well-Known Member
I triple checked everything as before, should have pointed that out... but YES all the other readings on the transistors were OL.
If I am chasing a good/bad/good ghost transistor without the use of a scope, do I have any re-course other than to just replace them all?
Since I cannot "see" the signal path as quickly as you can (or at all), would the 12 amp fuse have blown without a failure on the AWH-108 boards? Should I re-focus my efforts on the AWR-106 or the AWM-091 boards for componet failures?
some later stuff added...
basicblues
Well-Known Member
Yes I'd appreciate your help working up a replacement parts list. I've already been looking for those nichicon caps you mentioned. I've got wholesale accounts (what a joke) with Parts Express and MCI but I've also been attempting to sort though digikey and mouser websites too and it seems several of the values I would need are backordered.
Mouser parts numbers, a mix of Fairchild (512-) and ON-Semi (863-)
differential inputs, better off if the hfe is matched
2sa750 to-92 ecb 50v .05a .25w 100mhz hfe:450
512-KSA992FBU (ln)to-92 ecb 120v .05a .5w 100mhz 150-800hfe $0.05 ea
bias / vas
2sa858/2sc1439 to-92 ecb 150v 0.5a .5w 100mhz hfe:150
512-KSA910YBU to-92 ecb 150v .05a .8w 100mhz 40-240hfe $0.12 ea
512-KSC2310YBU to-92 ecb 150v .05a .8w 100mhz 40-240hfe $0.11 ea
pre-driver
2sa899/2sc1904 to-126 ecb 150v .05a 1w 100mhz hfe:150
512-KSA1142YSTU to-126 ecb 180v .1a 1.2/8w 200mhz 100-320hfe $0.28 ea
512-KSC2682YSTU to-126 ecb 180v .1a 1.2/8w 200mhz 100-320hfe $0.31 ea
drivers
2sb630/2sd610 to-220 bce 200v 2a 25w 4mhz hfe:80
512-KSA940TU_Q pnp to-220 bce 150v 1.5a 25w 4mhz 40-140hfe $0.54
512-KSC2073TU npn to-220 bce 150v 1.5a 25w 4mhz 40-140hfe $0.54
power outputs
2sb600/2sd555 to-3 200v 10a 200w 14mhz hfe:70
863-MJ21194G to-3 NPN 250v 16A 250W 4mhz 8-75hfe $4.10
863-MJ21193G to-3 PNP 250v 16A 250W 4mhz 8-75hfe $4.10
differential inputs, better off if the hfe is matched
2sa750 to-92 ecb 50v .05a .25w 100mhz hfe:450
512-KSA992FBU (ln)to-92 ecb 120v .05a .5w 100mhz 150-800hfe $0.05 ea
bias / vas
2sa858/2sc1439 to-92 ecb 150v 0.5a .5w 100mhz hfe:150
512-KSA910YBU to-92 ecb 150v .05a .8w 100mhz 40-240hfe $0.12 ea
512-KSC2310YBU to-92 ecb 150v .05a .8w 100mhz 40-240hfe $0.11 ea
pre-driver
2sa899/2sc1904 to-126 ecb 150v .05a 1w 100mhz hfe:150
512-KSA1142YSTU to-126 ecb 180v .1a 1.2/8w 200mhz 100-320hfe $0.28 ea
512-KSC2682YSTU to-126 ecb 180v .1a 1.2/8w 200mhz 100-320hfe $0.31 ea
drivers
2sb630/2sd610 to-220 bce 200v 2a 25w 4mhz hfe:80
512-KSA940TU_Q pnp to-220 bce 150v 1.5a 25w 4mhz 40-140hfe $0.54
512-KSC2073TU npn to-220 bce 150v 1.5a 25w 4mhz 40-140hfe $0.54
power outputs
2sb600/2sd555 to-3 200v 10a 200w 14mhz hfe:70
863-MJ21194G to-3 NPN 250v 16A 250W 4mhz 8-75hfe $4.10
863-MJ21193G to-3 PNP 250v 16A 250W 4mhz 8-75hfe $4.10
basicblues
Well-Known Member
Thanks again for your efforts. I'll attempt to get a complete parts list together this weekend, I'd like to add the caps I need also. Is there any other place to obtain the correct value nichicon caps? I checked a few of the values I needed from mouser and they were backordered.
I would have liked to have found the "why" factor of the failure but my previous electronic efforts were building and repairing vintage tube guitar amps which seems incredibly simple when comparing point to point verses PCB's. I am with you 100% to get both sides symmetrical and I've always attempted first to keep everything as original as possible so I am also against massive replacement. But things get old, things wear out and things need to be replaced so a working unit is better than a non-working unit when it comes to component replacing. In this case I don't feel I have much choice, I don't mind the work of replacing the components since I am already in this deep but my concern is over any change of the original tone or voicing.
I would have liked to have found the "why" factor of the failure but my previous electronic efforts were building and repairing vintage tube guitar amps which seems incredibly simple when comparing point to point verses PCB's. I am with you 100% to get both sides symmetrical and I've always attempted first to keep everything as original as possible so I am also against massive replacement. But things get old, things wear out and things need to be replaced so a working unit is better than a non-working unit when it comes to component replacing. In this case I don't feel I have much choice, I don't mind the work of replacing the components since I am already in this deep but my concern is over any change of the original tone or voicing.
I really doubt there will be much of an effect. Operating points might be slightly different, and the high frequency gain of the transistors might affect the original stability calculations a bit, but they still had to build (mass produce) the things with the production variations of 30 years ago without having to tweak each one.
What cap values are you trying to find, and what are they for?
Quite frankly the newer caps should have more of an effect on "voicing" or tone than these transistors, and the effect should tend more towards original.
As for the "why", we could incur more damage along the way, of more expensive parts than the ones we are attempting to avoid replacing. Then there is the risk of damage to the board when pulling it to replace a few parts at a time.
Of course a complete failure of a part is easier to find and fix than an intermittent in the process of failing.
Of course a distortion analyzer is much more of a final arbiter of the results....
What cap values are you trying to find, and what are they for?
Quite frankly the newer caps should have more of an effect on "voicing" or tone than these transistors, and the effect should tend more towards original.
As for the "why", we could incur more damage along the way, of more expensive parts than the ones we are attempting to avoid replacing. Then there is the risk of damage to the board when pulling it to replace a few parts at a time.
Of course a complete failure of a part is easier to find and fix than an intermittent in the process of failing.
Of course a distortion analyzer is much more of a final arbiter of the results....
basicblues
Well-Known Member
Oh, I agree 100% that replacing the caps will have the biggest voice effect. I was debating whether to just recap all 4 of these boards while I have them out.
The "why" factor was only for my own learning curve and just as you pointed out the "risk" factor isn't always worth it because of the "domino" effect. Seems (to me at least) when certain parts fail they'll take out a few of their close friends with them.
I am excited about getting this receiver tuned up. It seems to have a super strong tuner and grabs and locks in on stations very quick. I had (but now sold) both a SX-1250 & SX-1280 and I don't remember either of them jumping on those stations like this SX-5590 does. but... it might just be my imagination...
The "why" factor was only for my own learning curve and just as you pointed out the "risk" factor isn't always worth it because of the "domino" effect. Seems (to me at least) when certain parts fail they'll take out a few of their close friends with them.
I am excited about getting this receiver tuned up. It seems to have a super strong tuner and grabs and locks in on stations very quick. I had (but now sold) both a SX-1250 & SX-1280 and I don't remember either of them jumping on those stations like this SX-5590 does. but... it might just be my imagination...