Pitch Issues - Need Advice

[LucyGoose]

Two weeks ago, I found this neat vintage media console at a resale shop for $100. As a complete novice, l've spent hours and hours researching and tinkering to get the turntable from completely locked up to spinning and playing music ("sound" is probably the more accurate word here).

When I play a record, I'm getting these big wavy pitch changes, which I think are being caused by the platter spinning slower periodically. My assumption is that the idler wheel needs to be replaced, but it's not a super cheap part, so l wanted to get some feedback from people who know more than me.

So far I have:

1. taken apart and lubricated the motor. It seems to be spinning pretty easily.
2. cleaned the inside of the platter that touches the idler wheel pretty thoroughly.
3. lightly tried to take the old weathered edge off the idler wheel with some 160 grip sand paper

My question is whether I'm going to have to replace the idler wheel, or if l've misdiagnosed this issue completely. Doesn’t seem like I can attach a video, but I can link to one of anyone is interested. I’ll attach some photos of the idler wheel. If it's any help, the turntable is a BSR UA25.

 

[Mr Boochie]

Two weeks ago, I found this neat vintage media console at a resale shop for $100. As a complete novice, l've spent hours and hours researching and tinkering to get the turntable from completely locked up to spinning and playing music ("sound" is probably the more accurate word here).

When I play a record, I'm getting these big wavy pitch changes, which I think are being caused by the platter spinning slower periodically. My assumption is that the idler wheel needs to be replaced, but it's not a super cheap part, so l wanted to get some feedback from people who know more than me.

So far I have:

1. taken apart and lubricated the motor. It seems to be spinning pretty easily.
2. cleaned the inside of the platter that touches the idler wheel pretty thoroughly.
3. lightly tried to take the old weathered edge off the idler wheel with some 160 grip sand paper

My question is whether I'm going to have to replace the idler wheel, or if l've misdiagnosed this issue completely. Doesn’t seem like I can attach a video, but I can link to one of anyone is interested. I’ll attach some photos of the idler wheel. If it's any help, the turntable is a BSR UA25.

This will sound funny --- put the idler gear in a jar of auto brake fluid.

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=123238

 

[LucyGoose]

This will sound funny --- put the idler gear in a jar of auto brake fluid.

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=123238

Interesting! I’ll give it a shot. Thanks for the input!

 

[loudnoises]

Does the idler have a smooth lip or is it rough and dented? An emery board works better for keeping that lip square to the edge. You don't want it uneven.

If the rubber is flexible, brake fluid has little to add. What kind of table is it?

 

[gadget73]

large wow sounds like contamination on the inside of the platter. Usually when its a lack of grip the platter just has lousy torque. Wow is a slow pitch variation, line once per revolution, flutter is a rapid pitch variation, several times per revolution.

This really also wants the bearing cleaned and properly oiled if you havent. This looks like an old BSR changer? Those have lube problems same as Garrard, must have been using the same terrible grease. I think on these you have to remove the cycle cam, then you can get the bearing off the center spindle. It hits otherwise. While the cycle cam is off, clean the grease out of it's center and along the track, and make sure the flappy bit that controls the cycle engage setup is moving and completely free of any lube or dirt.

 

[mcgjohn]

Two weeks ago, I found this neat vintage media console at a resale shop for $100. As a complete novice, l've spent hours and hours researching and tinkering to get the turntable from completely locked up to spinning and playing music ("sound" is probably the more accurate word here).

When I play a record, I'm getting these big wavy pitch changes, which I think are being caused by the platter spinning slower periodically. My assumption is that the idler wheel needs to be replaced, but it's not a super cheap part, so l wanted to get some feedback from people who know more than me.

So far I have:

1. taken apart and lubricated the motor. It seems to be spinning pretty easily.
2. cleaned the inside of the platter that touches the idler wheel pretty thoroughly.
3. lightly tried to take the old weathered edge off the idler wheel with some 160 grip sand paper

My question is whether I'm going to have to replace the idler wheel, or if l've misdiagnosed this issue completely. Doesn’t seem like I can attach a video, but I can link to one of anyone is interested. I’ll attach some photos of the idler wheel. If it's any help, the turntable is a BSR UA25.

you may want to contact Terrysrubberrollers.com and see if he can fit a new tire on your idler drive hub.

 

[tourmax]

Gadget has pointed you in the right direction. Clean and lubricate.

Your idler doesn't look too bad, but the picture isn't exactly high res. I'd focus on the clean/lube by removing the idler and cleaning the shaft as well as inside the idler bearing. It looks like there's a bit rusty washer under the e clip in the picture. If it is, that needs to be taken care of (IE: cleaned and polished). You want that smooth and clean. If it's got even a surface rust on it, it can drag in spots.

Does the pitch change happen at the same cycle each time of its it "variable" (ie; happens at different times)?

The idler drive bearing is a place where "less is more". Meaning, the tiniest of a drop of the lightest oil on the shaft. If you don't have access to different weights of machine oil, a small bottle of "3 in 1" oil can work ok.

Idler drives by design pull themselves into the wheel when turning. Lower end idlers will often not pull the idler wheel back away from the platter surface when they are off. Or, the grease hardens up and the idler doesn't come back off the platter drive.

BSR isn't a bad brand, it's just not mid/high end stuff. Lots of them were used in building up other brands combo units. Good old "pickup truck" like tables.

If the idler is left in that condition for an extended period (ie: years) the rubber can take a set and you end up with a hard spot on the idler somewhere. This can cause wow/flutter as that hardened/flattened section rotates through the movement. I've saved a couple like that by "truing up" the running surface on the idler, but that's not really something you do by hand accurately. I use a lathe and a grinding attachment to shave a few thou off.

I've got a old BSR table sitting over in the corner. It's pretty "minty" and ran ok last time I tried it, but it's not something I'll ever use (don't need it). It came to me as part of a "Juliette" receiver/record player combo. It's a different model than yours, but I'll have look at it and see if anything obvious jumps out at me....

 

[tourmax]

So the BSR table I have here:



Similar "guts":



The design pulls the idler off the drive (capstan) when it;s turned "off", but holds it against the platter drive. That's a situation that's prime for making a hard/flat spot on the idler if left siting for any prolonged period.

Turns out what I saw in your pic is not a "rusty" washer under the e clip, its a fiber washer and there's one at the bottom as well:



Might want to give the drive (IE: capstan) a clean as well. this one has a lot of rubber residue on it. Yours may be similar:



The idler rubber also looked like a small bit of it had deteriorated from running. Like small shavings sitting on the rubber.

Platter drive surface is pretty...ummm, "unsophisticated":



Piece of stamped steel spot welded to more steel. Not very precise. There's lots of opportunities for "variance" in this design.

I'd say clean it up and get it running as decent as you can, but I don't think I would put any decent money into it.

If you like the console itself, I'd be more inclined to pick up something like a Dual 1019 , 1219, etc and put that in. They show up used fairly often at decent prices and just need a little clean and lube to get them running tip top again. Better build quality, better sound and there's more aftermarket support for them (ie: parts, repair shops, etc)