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Which speakers are best for soundstage depth?


  • Total voters
    11

Kreshna

...but I have to know.
My current speakers belong to the JBL titanium family; JBL 120Tis, a single JBL 4410, JBL L20Ts, and JBL LX44s. They are excellent speakers, and many of them have given me "wow" moments. The first and foremost "wow" is caused by their crisp yet clean HF. From the cymbal-heavy intro of John Larkin's Game Over Jazz, the ringing bell of Miriam Makeba's Ring Bell, the chirping birds of Herbie Mann's Lugar Comum, to the clinking sound of weapons and armor of troops running to battle in WarCraft III computer game intro (starting from the minute 1:40 to the minute 1:43, then from 2:03 to 2:08), the JBL titanium speakers are always stunning.

The second "wow" comes from pinpointed stereo imaging, especially that of the 120Tis, as discussed here.

The third "wow" is related to soundstage width. It was a quite memorable experience. I was playing Quake, a first-person shooter computer game, using my JBL 120Tis and Yamaha RX-V663 in Virtual Cinema DSP mode (virtual surround with only a pair of speakers). I shot a grenade from my grenade launcher, then quickly turned to the right to avoid enemy fire. As such, I should heard the sound from my left, and indeed I did! The sound really came from my left, far from the outside of the left speaker! "Yeah, but you were using Yamaha Cinema DSP to extend soundstage width," one might say. Indeed, guilty as charged, but that's beside the point. The point is the 120Tis are capable to extend soundstage width wider than the speakers' position. Whether such width is genuinely originated from the source material or artificially created using DSP tricks is irrelevant, the point is the speakers are capable to do what the upstream components tell them to do.

With such excellent speakers, what more do I want, then? What am I missing? Soundstage depth, it is. I want to be wowed by the sound that comes from behind the speakers, and none of those JBLs --despite their excellence in other areas-- has ever given me that. The 120Tis are indeed placed against the wall, so their position is probably the culprit. However, the JBL L20Ts are placed very far from both the front wall (the wall behind the speakers) and the side walls, and they still never give me the "wow" soundstage depth I want.

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The JBL L20Ts are probably 6 meters from the front wall and 2 meters from each side wall, and yet I cannot hear any soundstage depth.

On the other hand, I have to remodel my house sooner or later anyway, The JBL titanium speakers will go to the living room for HT setup, where they will have sufficient room to breathe. But remodeling the house will also give me the opportunity to build a small 'private listening room', about 3 meters x 4 meters, where I plan to use small speakers to achieve the best soundstage depth using Cardas Golden Ratio placement. As such, I'm looking for speakers with deep soundstage and the ability to disappear very well. Cheap speakers are preferred, since I may want to use five of such speakers for surround setup in the said small room. Tonal accuracy are nice, but not a necessity. After all, the JBL titanium speakers I already have are quite accurate and clinical, while in the said small room, I want to have a different experience; an excellent spatial experience. Thus, I'd happily sacrifice tonal accuracy for soundstage depth and disappearing act.

After doing some Google research, I found some candidates:


Bowers & Wilkins DM302

According to this review, B&W DM302 has excellent soundstage depth, and they also disappear very well. As the review says:

..In addition, it images up a storm, completely disappearing into the wide and deep soundfield, offering a holographic picture of the recording venue. It also provides lots of detail – an amazing amount for this price range...

Also, this:

...The 303s are far superior to the 302s in every area except one: They do not produce as complex and involving a soundstage as the 302s, but I think they are superior at localization. The 303s soundstage performance is very good, it's just that the 302 is amazing in this area. It almost sounds like some sort of electronic spatial manipulation has been inserted into the signal path...

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Bowers & Wilkins DM302

As such, B&W DM302 could be exactly the speakers I'm looking for! Deep soundstage, and the speakers also disappear. They also show up on ebay ocassionaly, so they're not really hard to find. Furthermore, they are pretty sensitive at 91 dB / watt / meter. Maybe they're not as clinical nor as tonally accurate as JBL titaniums, but like I said, I would happily sacrifice tonal accuracy for soundstage depth.

However, can you trust those reviews? Several months ago I auditioned a pair of highly acclaimed B&W CM6 in a B&W showroom in Jakarta. Yes, they sound far gentler than my JBL L20T, but they don't appear to have soundstage depth behind the speakers. If anything, they behave like my JBL 120Ti, where I could vaguely hear soundstage depth in front of the speakers instead of behind them. Any reason to believe the DM302 would be better, soundstage-wise?


NHT SuperZero

The legendary small speakers designed by Ken Kantor. They are highly praised by Stereophile Magazine, but this particular trait is what especially stirs my interest:

I set up the NHTs well away from the rear and sidewalls and was rewarded with a vivid, boundary-free soundscape that floated in the air without any aural clues that it was coming from those two tiny black boxes on the other side of the room. Recordings with a real sense of depth and soundstage, such as Los Lobos' Kiko (Slash 26786-2), or the great new Jeff Palmer organ-trio workout Ease On (AudioQuest AQ-CD1014), came across with a sense of ambient detail and lack of boxiness that I just don't hear from many sub-$1000 loudspeakers, much less ones costing only $230.

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Now Hear This SuperZero

Disappearing act, and soundstage depth. Just exactly what I'm looking for. However, the NHT is not as sensitive as the B&W DM302 above. Also, bass integration could be difficult.

On the plus side, NHT SuperZeros are plentiful on ebay. Unlike B&W DM302, which is discontinued (so I could only buy them on ebay), NHT SuperZero is available from brick and mortar stores in my country. However, those SuperZeros are NTH SuperZero 2.1. So, are they still the same SuperZeros which were so highly acclaimed by Stereophile Magazine?


Jim Holtz's Finalists

DIY speakers. Highly acclaimed, but by their own designer. This is what the designer says:

The Finalists offer the same huge atmospheric soundstage and layered depth the Statements are known for. Depending on the recording the performers begin at the rear of the speakers and are layered to the rear and sides with the soundstage extending well beyond the width of the speakers if recorded that way. The speakers disappear leaving only the performance. BIG sound from small speakers.

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Jim Holtz's Finalists

Again, deep soundstage, and disappearing act. Yet the praises come from their own designer. An audiophile buddy of mine is already skeptical about the Finalists. What do you think?


Wild Burro Betsy K Open Baffle

Also DIY.. Definitely easier to build than the Finalists above, and much cheaper too. And since it's a folded open baffle, the speakers seem to be small enough for my 3 meters x 4 meters room, even if I use five of them in 5.1 for playing old computer games from late 1990's to early 2000's (Aureal 3D or DirectSound 3D).

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Wild Burro Betsy K Open Baffle

Open baffle is said to have excellent soundstage depth, and Betsy K frequency response curve shows that the driver goes down pretty low. So, it's open baffle, it's cheap and easy to build, and it's very sensitive too! But any loudspeaker design is always trade off. In which area would the Betsy K Open Baffle perform notably worse than B&W DM302 and the NHT SuperZero?
 
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It looks like you are near field listening. That will never give you depth of soundstage.
I see. Even when the speakers are very far from the walls? I thought with such great distance from the walls, it would virtually eliminate early reflections, thus giving the soundstage depth I'm looking for.

In any case, with treated room and ideal speaker position from the wall, which of the loudspeaker models above would be best for deep soundstage?
 
Question of semantics? in my experience the JBL's are vary forward is there not depth from the speakers into the room? Just not behind?
 
Question of semantics? in my experience the JBL's are vary forward is there not depth from the speakers into the room? Just not behind?
But you are right! The JBLs do have soundstage depth, but in front of the speakers instead of behind them. I also noticed they don't suffer much from being placed against the wall. Although they don't seem to benefit much either when pulled into the room. That's why they will go to the living room, in more traditional HT setup, where they would have more room to breathe (no nearfield listening), and where they would be placed pretty close to the front wall just like in traditional HT setup.

In the planned 3 x 4 room, however, I want to put small speakers according to Cardas Golden Ratio --to experience soundstage depth behind the speakers. So, assuming treated room with ideal placement, which small speakers would you suggest?
 
IME any properly setup planars (Maggies or ESL's) will produce superb soundstage depth. The key here being "properly set up". Of course, being properly set up applies to any speaker. Bear in mind soundstage depth or lack of is recording dependent. IME much of popular recorded music doesn't have much depth. While it may and usually does have great separation and left right imaging there is little to no depth.
In my room, ESL's or my current Maggies make the front wall disappear with any appropriately recorded source. Incidentally, I call it the front wall because I'm listener oriented and that wall is in front of me. Were I performer oriented it would be the back wall. Just as the stage directions (left and right) would be reversed. However, we listen to our stereos, we are not performing.

IME: Telarc recordings (for classical) and Groove Note recordings (for Jazz) are examples of recordings that exhibit a wide and deep soundstage.
 
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IME any properly setup planars (Maggies or ESL's) will produce superb soundstage depth.
Naturally, we're on the same page! Are you aware of the new 30.7? It's a modern push-pull Tympani with the sweet ribbons. But would likely not fit very well on his desk. :)

To the OP's question especially considering his current arrangement, I'd go with Mini Maggies which are scaled down 3.7s.
 
My issue with Maggies is they ALWAYS have sounded bloated and not very dynamic, to me and I have only heard one set ever that sounded fine but the gent had so much power it was crazy. Properly setup means gobs of room and how many people have that?

I have a room specifically designed for planar speakers.

BTW: The recordings recommendation applies to any quality speakers properly set up. On or near a wall with multiple pairs of unused speakers does not apply.

Naturally, we're on the same page! Are you aware of the new 30.7? It's a modern push-pull Tympani with the sweet ribbons. But would likely not fit very well on his desk. :)

To the OP's question especially considering his current arrangement, I'd go with Mini Maggies which are scaled down 3.7s.

I haven't heard the 30.7's. Who has? I have heard Mini Maggies and I agree with you.
 
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I have a room specifically designed for planar speakers.
Mine is a goodly sized (16'x25'-28'), acoustically treated re-purposed bedroom that works great.

I would not want the 10'x36' room bot man uses.
 
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This may not be popular but I have had Heresey's that to me offered a tremendous amount of depth and demension so to speak. I wasn't sure if the OP was looking for a smaller near field setup.
 
Mine is a goodly sized (16'x25'-28'), acoustically treated re-purposed bedroom that works great.

I would not want the 10'x36' room bot man uses.

Nice high ceiling you've got there.:D
My room is 15'x32x9'. It used to be my living and dining rooms. I knocked down a wall almost 20 years ago.
 
Best soundstage I've ever heard from bookshelf speakers was from Spica speakers. Either the TC50 or TC60. Designed from the ground up specifically for casting a huge soundstage. The designer, John Bau, first designed the TC50, then spent more than 5 years improving on that with the TC60, which also has deeper bass output. He sloped the front baffle to time align the voice coils, dampened the grills with padding and then cut that dampening with specific patterns to enhance dispersal and maximize precise imaging. He also hand matched each driver set, so one needed to buy them in the original pairs to get the most out of them. Heaven forbid if you needed to replace a driver.

When setup correctly, they can be fantastic. But lack somewhat in dynamics and ability to play loud.
 
I noticed someone voted B&W DM302. So the soundstage is really as good as advertised, isn"t it?
 
Stereophile reviewed the DM302s way back in the 1990s. They had this to say about their imaging:
"You might not expect speakers this size to totally disappear and re-create the original performance, but they do. While small cabinet loudspeakers are known for imaging well, the DM302s throw a soundstage that consistently startles with its openness and ease. You don't get merely a taste of what the full-bore high-end speakers do, you get way into serious audiophile territory. "
 
Stereophile reviewed the DM302s way back in the 1990s. They had this to say about their imaging:
"You might not expect speakers this size to totally disappear and re-create the original performance, but they do. While small cabinet loudspeakers are known for imaging well, the DM302s throw a soundstage that consistently startles with its openness and ease. You don't get merely a taste of what the full-bore high-end speakers do, you get way into serious audiophile territory. "
I see. B&W DM302 it is, then.

No opinions on the legendary NHT SuperZero? Or perhaps the SuperZero 2.1 available in the market now is not the same as the legendary SuperZero that was highly acclaimed by Stereophile Magazine many years ago?
 
Nice high ceiling you've got there.
My room is 15'x32x9'. It used to be my living and dining rooms. I knocked down a wall almost 20 years ago.
Well, the room has extended areas for dormers at both the front and rear. The equipment rack lives in the front one and at the rear, almost half the width of the room is three feet deeper. So it ranges from 25 to 28 feet deep.
 
i own the NHT super ones, the next model up , stunning little speaker, the kef r 300s are the best soundstage speakers i have heard yet, but the nhts irritate me because they arent miles behind my kefs. They should be.
 
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