Please Please Please help :(
- Thread starter Audionerd
- Start date
westend
Audiopile
Mass loaded transmission line. The cabs are almost exactly 2x volume of the Model 19 cabinets The build thread is here. I measured the power I used to push them in a small space, when they were first built, and I was using about two watts. They are driven through active crossovers but the preamp volume control is barely turned.
If you can't manage to assemble true crossover networks by next week (not sure where you are on this), you could probably kludge a simple first order to the horns and let the woofer reach it's roll off on the high end. I've done worse things. :yes:
I'm surprised you got so many nay-sayers in your thread about using these for the wedding. I know I'd be proud and happy to have a pair of vintage Altecs at any event. The whole trick to using just one pair of speakers is getting the sound out to all of the crowd and not having to deafen the few that are closer to the speakers. A backyard and a wedding should be easy to pull off. If you can, I'd suggest to get the boxs up on stands or somehow shoot over the heads of the crowd. If you do a sound check and place the listening position at the back of the yard, just dial it in for an accurate low-level sound and all will fall into place.
Audionerd
Active Member
Westend! Thanks for the advice and encouragement this has been a stressful ordeal never had to make this much noise outside I know these things have the capability I had them going already but with apparently not w ough crossover network they were very loud and clear a guy that recones in Oregon used to be an authorized Altec repair center he said with what I have there If I don't get the crossovers going will probably make it he said keep the attenuator down and he'd be more worried about the woofer then the horn I live your cabs I have a transmission line box in my jeep that gets with it I have a subsonic filter because it can't hit below 30hz without some funky noises how low does your transmission line play
westend
Audiopile
My Altec cabs were built with two intentions, raise the woofer to a height that would allow listening in the Polish Princess's Throne Room (aren't all gals crazy about furniture?) and to improve the already adequate bass response of the Altec 416b. Both of those purposes were fufilled. The transmission line pulls down the bass hump of the original Model 19 cabinets (something I really didn't find offensive) and lets the lower end more gradually fall off. It was awesome to hear how low and effortless the big cabinets and the 416 can go.
I know you're a car audio guy (me too, I have about 1800w in my truck) so are probably worried more about power and sound level than is necessary. At an event like a wedding, most of the listening is going to be at casual levels, people mingling and talking after the ceremony. Probably some eating going on, etc.. At those times, there is no reason for loud, put on some background stuff, either the Bride and Grooms favs or some easy listening stuff at low levels. People will be asking you to turn it down or change tunes, you can't appeal to everyone's listening choices and/or age groups. Mix it up.
When you get into the dance time is when you can crank up the music but remember, you're not in the lanes, adjust to how much smileage is on faces. if you start to see frownage, turn it down or mix it up. The only ones you really need to please are the Bride and Groom and yourself for offering up some pleasing sound. Watch the Bride, if her girlfriends are pulling her off a chair to dance and they are all giggly and ****, you've done the job.
I know you're a car audio guy (me too, I have about 1800w in my truck) so are probably worried more about power and sound level than is necessary. At an event like a wedding, most of the listening is going to be at casual levels, people mingling and talking after the ceremony. Probably some eating going on, etc.. At those times, there is no reason for loud, put on some background stuff, either the Bride and Grooms favs or some easy listening stuff at low levels. People will be asking you to turn it down or change tunes, you can't appeal to everyone's listening choices and/or age groups. Mix it up.
When you get into the dance time is when you can crank up the music but remember, you're not in the lanes, adjust to how much smileage is on faces. if you start to see frownage, turn it down or mix it up. The only ones you really need to please are the Bride and Groom and yourself for offering up some pleasing sound. Watch the Bride, if her girlfriends are pulling her off a chair to dance and they are all giggly and ****, you've done the job.
Audionerd
Active Member
Holy cow westend read through your build thread I was telling my dad about your use of the heil thats what he uses and swears by. My other friend is a die hard magneplanar fan I haven't heard them myself but want too. I heard some martin logan electrostatic speakers but my friend says they sound good till your hear magneplanars. I absolutely love your moveable horn design! I want the voice of the theater A7 cabs but I imagine if they were that cool you would use them. so is the A5 amp a custom thing? theres some handles like that at lowes for cabinets that I use to make things I make look cooler. thanks for all your help you have me so pumped. I hear tube power makes the horns come to life but I also like my music brighter than most people I like ny guitars to scream. and saxaphones and brass in general sharp toned
4343
Super Member
2KHz crossover is better for outdoor use.
511 is a horn, the compression driver is at the back of the horn. What driver are you using? It's been years since I used Altec stuff, I think you have an 811 horn in the 1218's?
As I posted in your original thread, for outdoor use I think you are better off using the single cap crossover that came with your box. If you listen to the woofer with that crossover, you should find that it's running full range (flat out till it rolls off). It was very common when these systems were new to rip out all the stock components that make up the 800Hz crossover and put in just enough to filter the horn below 2KHz. The woofer goes about that high run full range, and the horn is much less likely to pop when someone drops a mic or gets too close to the speaker with one. I did exactly that mod on a pair of those after replacing the tweeter diaphragms a few times at the outdoor theater I used to work, never had to change them again.
As others have said, this model Altec was not intended for outdoor use, and the crossover point was chosen for optimum dispersion, not optimum power handling. Save the stock crossover for low level use with your stereo, swap in the one that's been modified for SR work when you take them outdoors and crank 'em...
511 is a horn, the compression driver is at the back of the horn. What driver are you using? It's been years since I used Altec stuff, I think you have an 811 horn in the 1218's?
As I posted in your original thread, for outdoor use I think you are better off using the single cap crossover that came with your box. If you listen to the woofer with that crossover, you should find that it's running full range (flat out till it rolls off). It was very common when these systems were new to rip out all the stock components that make up the 800Hz crossover and put in just enough to filter the horn below 2KHz. The woofer goes about that high run full range, and the horn is much less likely to pop when someone drops a mic or gets too close to the speaker with one. I did exactly that mod on a pair of those after replacing the tweeter diaphragms a few times at the outdoor theater I used to work, never had to change them again.
As others have said, this model Altec was not intended for outdoor use, and the crossover point was chosen for optimum dispersion, not optimum power handling. Save the stock crossover for low level use with your stereo, swap in the one that's been modified for SR work when you take them outdoors and crank 'em...
Coytee
Super Member
If your amps have gains on them, you might try cutting the gains down to allow you to maximize the gain of your preamp.
Long story short, I also (actively) biamp. I was amazed at having ZERO light indicators showing any signal strength unless the system was deafening loud.
At the same time, I saw someone else (same setup with same active) who's lights were full lit but, not going into clipping. That got me to wondering and asking more questions.
I got new amps with gains on them and now with the gains turned down (I use a Crown K2 per speaker), my preamp is forced to work harder which maximizes the input gain into the active which gives a better sound to the system.
I learned it's all about gain structure.
Sorry for temporary hijack, just wanted to offer that since I've been down that road before and feel the system sounds better with the active crossover taking a stronger input signal.
GL to the OP on your endeavour!
:thmbsp:
4343
Super Member
Backup Plan!
Just make sure and get there early to get the parking spot that will let the car speakers be heard, probably wouldn't work if you have to park in front of the house for a backyard party... (And it helps if you have speakers that can be aimed out of the car!)
I have used a car stereo for PA before, it helps if you have a van with the Altecs (I had 811 with 808-8A's on top of JBL K-140's) facing the side door so you can just park with them facing where you want the sound and opening the door. Once I used the rear door with some wedges that could be rotated to point out the door for a soccer match when parking was restricted.
I still have a little realistic PA mixer/amp that has a 12V cord. Line out to a decent car amp works...
Just make sure and get there early to get the parking spot that will let the car speakers be heard, probably wouldn't work if you have to park in front of the house for a backyard party... (And it helps if you have speakers that can be aimed out of the car!)
I have used a car stereo for PA before, it helps if you have a van with the Altecs (I had 811 with 808-8A's on top of JBL K-140's) facing the side door so you can just park with them facing where you want the sound and opening the door. Once I used the rear door with some wedges that could be rotated to point out the door for a soccer match when parking was restricted.
I still have a little realistic PA mixer/amp that has a 12V cord. Line out to a decent car amp works...
4343
Super Member
Electrolytics sound, well, not-so-good to me. The original red ended caps are fine, top grade film caps. Don't throw them out. In fact, don't bother changing them until you feel like getting something better, and there are a few better ones out there now, but electrolytic ain't it! The real weak link in the Altec XO is the tiny inductors, they will saturate with enough bass and that sounds awful... Once you put enough bass in to saturate the inductors, the tweeters will pop, so that's about as far as that box goes, volume wise anyways.
I have a pair of those that have been working for 30 years as horn protection caps, and one other that the lead broke off on. They all still measure perfect.
Guitar amps generally have way too much tone control, you would have a harder time getting a flat playback, but lots of fun tweaking...
petehall347
the brandy coffee man
must admit i am not a fan of passive crossovers for p.a use ..too costly on amps and speaker cones for my liking . i got some p.a cabs not knowing they had crossovers built in .added them to my stack turned up the volume magic smoke everywhere ..lesson learnt there .nice old speakers too . celestion or fane cant remember just now ..full set of expensive mosfets too . to end the story no passive crossover or actives for that matter .added eq which is for fine tune and the saviour a compressor limiter i play with it for a while then press the auto button when the beer kicks in .
westend
Audiopile
Believe me, I have more time with gain structure on this setup than I needed to spend. I've used different combinations of dissimilar amps, some with gain controls and some without. Your assessment about the signal handling and gain is spot on, it is all a balancing act to get to the best presentation. I have another F5 to add into this system when I get the time to build it.
Yes, a good film cap is the ticket and I use them even when using the active crossovers, just for the protection.
I have Altec 802-g compression drivers (original aluminum diaphragms) mounted to the 811 horns. The crossover point is at 1100hz. The 511 horn offers wider dispersion and will allow a lower crossover point, something that I would like to try. The Altec aluminum constant directivity horns are surpassed, sonically, by quite a few others. I am thinking about going to the lager format JBL drivers and wooden horns, these will crossover down to 350hz and that might be a big upgrade.
Yeah, the Heil AMT, used as a super tweeter, is something to behold. The dipole aspect is a little disconcerting but I use them above 9 khz so massive back wave sound isn't overwhelming. If I have them dialed in correctly, they add in just the right amount of sizzle to the top end.
I've touted these film caps so many times that it is getting boring but Parts Connexion has these Axon True Caps in larger values at a decent price. They work well in crossover networks.
The Axon's look very similar to the Erse PulseX-although Erse quotes the tolerance @ 3%.
I like the Erse, they seem to work very well, and the large caps are a bit shorter then, say Dayton polys.
They are available in 250, 400, and 630 volt. The 400 volt have very stout leads, the 630 huge.
I just order them direct, shipping is reasonable.
Personally I don't get too worried about the brand of cap, as long as they are well constructed and have a tight tolerance. Tolerance is a big deal IMHO.10% is too loose for my taste, and the imaging suffers with detailed drivers such as Heils.
Erse has always made nice air coils, and the PulseX carry on this well constructed theme.
I like the Erse, they seem to work very well, and the large caps are a bit shorter then, say Dayton polys.
They are available in 250, 400, and 630 volt. The 400 volt have very stout leads, the 630 huge.
I just order them direct, shipping is reasonable.
Personally I don't get too worried about the brand of cap, as long as they are well constructed and have a tight tolerance. Tolerance is a big deal IMHO.10% is too loose for my taste, and the imaging suffers with detailed drivers such as Heils.
Erse has always made nice air coils, and the PulseX carry on this well constructed theme.