Portable DAC vs CD player

[scotto541]

I'm looking at 2 options
1) Using my current run of the mill 20 year old DVD player to play my CDs and send the digital signal to a Fiio E17k then a line out from the Fiio to my vintage receiver.
2) Do a bunch of research on which CD or DVD players have good DAC chips and scrounge Craigslist and Goodwill for a diamond in the rough CD player.
In general, would a modern portable or inexpensive DAC coupled with any decent old CD player have better or as good sound quality as a nice older/used DVD or CD player?

 

[Poinzy]

2) is really short of specifics, so it's hard for me to get my bearings. "Nice" "older" "modern" "diamond in the rough" "inexpensive" "good" -- get specific about things you have seen or read about that interest you. It would be easier to offer suggestions then.

 

[rwartner]

Are you able to bypass the CD player DAC when you plug into the external DAC? Some CD players have option of digital out which bypasses the CD DAC.
That way you can listen either way. I would say that 2) in general you won't hear much difference unless CD DAC is really bad and external DAC really good.

 

[E-Stat]

I'm looking at 2 options

My vote would clearly be for option 1:

1. Transports fail and older ones are sometimes difficult, if not impossible to fix. You can always find a cheap DVD player with digital output.
2. Modern DACs are really good. You can gradually upgrade without having to replace the entire unit
3. Having a separate DAC allows other sources, including content stored on computers.

 

[savatage1973]

Another vote for option 1.

IMHO (and I've said this before)--a drive is a drive is a drive--if the disc spins and the laser reads the ones and zeros, that's all that really matters. Any drive with a digital out will do, because the DAC and associated preamp function does all of the "heavy lifting". As with any mechanical device, there are different levels of built quality/reliability, but all that a drive has to do is spin and read the ones and zeros.

There are only a handful of manufacturers of drives, whether they be for CDPs, DVD players, BRD players or computers--it is the DAC and further downstream preamplification circuitry that makes all the difference in the sound.

 

[pdm4606]

Very cheap DAC's on the bay. I use 3 for 3 different systems and they're fine. They take toslink and coax. audio signals and convert to analog stereo.
Running around $15 each with shipping. No controls. Power supply included.

No affiliation.

 

[SoNic67]

Are you able to bypass the CD player DAC when you plug into the external DAC? Some CD players have option of digital out which bypasses the CD DAC.
That way you can listen either way. I would say that 2) in general you won't hear much difference unless CD DAC is really bad and external DAC really good.

You are confused. On ALL players (CD/DVD), the internal DAC's are bypassed when you use the digital audio output. That's the only way you can use an external DAC attached to a CD/DVD player.

IMHO (and I've said this before)--a drive is a drive is a drive--if the disc spins and the laser reads the ones and zeros, that's all that really matters. Any drive with a digital out will do, because the DAC and associated preamp function does all of the "heavy lifting". As with any mechanical device, there are different levels of built quality/reliability, but all that a drive has to do is spin and read the ones and zeros.

You are wrong too. It matters WHEN those 0 and 1 arrive to the DAC, because our analog ears don't have a buffer RAM to store those and play them in the right tempo.
That's called jitter, and a bad player will make more of it. Jitter affects the shape of the decoded signal and implicit the distortions.

Generally a CD player have less jitter at the internal DAC than trough the SPDIF connection to an external DAC, mainly because of the way the SPDIF signal is generated and then recovered at the DAC side (the clock is embedded with L/R data). Internally, the digital data travels on a three wire system, clock being kept separated from L/R data.
There are ways around it (cheap DAC's don't have those implemented)... but this is too much to be discussed here. Google knows.

 

[scotto541]

There's a lot of good specifics to learn from here, I'll be googling and reading for a while to catch up. What I'm really asking is simple or more broad question: which is more Likely to sound better:
1) My Pioneer DV-563A DVD Player playing CDs into my NAD 7020 Receiver.
2) That DVD player playing CDs into a Fiio E17k via digital or optical, then the Fiio into my NAD (I'd go out and buy the Fiio).
In general, how do 25 year old CD or DVD players with their built-in DACs stack up sound quality wise vs a lower cost ($100) modern external DAC like the Fiio E17k, Schiit Modi 2, or the NuForce uDAC3.
If the external DAC would likely be an audible upgrade in sound quality then I'll go get one. If not then I'll keep saving up for now and upgrade later.

 

[SoNic67]

NAD 7020? SNR -86dB, THD 0.02% (-74dB)... That's the weakest link, it was maybe OK in '83 when it was new, not today.
Sorry, they all be sounding the same trough it.

 

[scotto541]

Awesome. Thanks so much for all the helpful info! I'll save up my money for a better amp or receiver.
SoNic, I also have an NAD 1020 PreAmp. Assuming I get a better amp of some sort, would that pre-amp still be a weak link as well?

 

[rwartner]

You are confused. On ALL players (CD/DVD), the internal DAC's are bypassed when you use the digital audio output. That's the only way you can use an external DAC attached to a CD/DVD player.

I have a Sony CX-53 CD player (51 CDs) that has line out and digital output. I have had CD players with only line out.
With the Sony I could plug in either the line out or digital output to external DAC. To bypass the CD player internal DAC you use the digital output.

That is what I mean by optional. I am confused about lots of stuff but don't think this is one of them.

 

[George W]

NAD 7020? SNR -86dB, THD 0.02% (-74dB)... That's the weakest link, it was maybe OK in '83 when it was new, not today.
Sorry, they all be sounding the same trough it.

nothing wrong with the sound of a 7020.

 

[SoNic67]

Well, it might be... or it was true in 1983. The electrolytic capacitors are some 33 years old now.
In 2016, it will not reveal any differences between the DVD player ( Pioneer DV-563A) that he is using today and another DAC, it's just not at that level.

 

[Quadrunner]

Sonic, I'd have to agree with you that greater gains would likely be had by restoring or considering an 'upgrade' to the aging amplifier and I'm glad that was mentioned here. I've gotta say though I'm a little disappointed in the black and white wording you chose in your responses, and how quick the OP was to believe them. Some amps do age well, and while its not likely, not all of them necessarily need work at that age or even older to perform at or acceptably near advertised performance. The initial response was also a let down referring to specs that in my opinion do not (within a tolerance of course) reliably predict the quality of sound without taking into account other factors. You can definitely benefit from source improvement with worse on paper performance then he is running if you have speakers that can keep up with the rest of the system, which for all we know, could be his real limiting factor.

On top of this, you didn't answer his questions, despite having the experience (in my opinion) to do so. Don't mean to put you down or anything, but usually I'm learning so much from your posts, and there is a chance of Scotto saving hard earned money to bet on misconceptions. What the heck? I wish my first post towards you wasn't of this nature. I'd like to thank you for all of the help you've been inadvertently giving me as I search through audiokarma.



Okay Scotto, since I'm already posting anyway here is the best I can do with my humble experience. As for the External DAC vs CD Player. I've asked remarkably similar questions as I'm currently saving for my first DAC, and gotten vague answers to my vague questions. I'll tell you this. More and more people are practically giving away their outdated CD and DVD players these days. It doesn't hurt to do some research and keep your eyes open. A cool thing about DAC's is that you can buy one, try it out, and sell it in a reasonable time frame for minimal loss since they don't tend to be weighed down by high shipping prices like the majority of gear in this game. Their isn't a ton of variability in their pricing with your budget to begin with either. If you feel one might work good for you, and you can afford a small gamble I'd personally go for it, especially considering the wear it could save your old CD player by using quality ripped copies of your CD's off your computer.

Your greatest gains are typically in your speaker placement, followed by the speakers, amp and preamp so if you are still at the stage where you want bang for the buck night and day improvement, that is something you should seriously consider.

 

[SoNic67]

I'm an engineer, educated in a harsh historical place and time, so speech is not one of my forte treats. I am direct, and short. I am not trying to be rude, or grumpy, it's just how we grew on the "other" side of the wall.

I thought that if I said that the amp is the weakest link, it automatically means that this is my personal opinion, more like an educated guess, not an ultimate truth. It still can sound good to somebody's ears.
When I said that "Sorry, they all be sounding the same trough it", it automatically implied that any investment in the other DAC will be not wise spent money because I doubt that the amp will reveal any differences. Again, this is an educated guess.
Also, being an engineer I know that Devices that measure GOOD might sound BAD at times. "Good" here means measurements above a certain point, like THD+N better than -90..95dB (not limited to this). It shows that the manufacturer at least took care to eliminate the obvious and well known sources of design errors and distortions.
A lot of people make the mistake and assume that the reverse of that is also true by logical induction - devices that measure BAD can sound GOOD at times. Well, in all my experience that was NEVER true. Bad measurements (bad being here below a certain point) are always a sign of lower sound quality.
I know that a lot of tube lovers tend to believe otherwise, but that is their personal taste, nothing more. I was in that camp (tubes) like 30 years ago, so I know what I am talking about.

 

[savatage1973]

You are wrong too. It matters WHEN those 0 and 1 arrive to the DAC, because our analog ears don't have a buffer RAM to store those and play them in the right tempo.
That's called jitter, and a bad player will make more of it. Jitter affects the shape of the decoded signal and implicit the distortions.

From a purely technical standpoint, with empirical data, I will agree--now if any human can actually hear it (unless it is a REALLY bad deck), I'd like to meet them.

Generally a CD player have less jitter at the internal DAC than trough the SPDIF connection to an external DAC, mainly because of the way the SPDIF signal is generated and then recovered at the DAC side (the clock is embedded with L/R data). Internally, the digital data travels on a three wire system, clock being kept separated from L/R data.
There are ways around it (cheap DAC's don't have those implemented)

I use external DACs, but also enjoy several CDPs that I utilize their internal DACs. No cheap ones, but decent vintage units. Again, if you can actually hear the difference between 0.02% and 0.002% distortion--God bless you. I don't think that any quantifiable parameter in my life could make a difference at that level of tolerance--even though there is an order of magnitude difference--1% vs 10%--probably--most likely.

I've gotta say though I'm a little disappointed in the black and white wording you chose in your responses, and how quick the OP was to believe them.

I'd have to agree that I was a little "off-put" by the tone of these posts. There is NO absolute "right and wrong", and I don't care who you are or think you are. If I had THE ANSWER, I'd be a retired millionaire by now (actually, long ago), and I have a PhD.

And how many have actually opened up a "high-end" CDP or "multidrive" unit) just to find the same transport/drive that you would find in a $50 WalMart DVD player? I know that I have on too many occasions. Too many times, people pay more money for the faceplate and the name engraved on it, than the actual product. And this is not a matter of envy or jealously regarding money--if I wanted to drop $2K tomorrow on a "high-end" CDP, I'd be ordering it right now.