Power amp suggestions
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BrassTeacher
Uncurable Tweaker
It's not self-biased, but if I had $1,000 to work with, I'd look into:
The Harman-Kardon Citation II.
The Harman-Kardon Citation II.
Are your preamps solid state? If they are you may want to look for a tube pre also.
This is just my opinion but running s.s. pres into tube amps does not make much sense.
This is just my opinion but running s.s. pres into tube amps does not make much sense.
SET12
Super Member
There are a lot of good suggestions from these people but I think its necessary for you to determine what loudspeaker you want to settle with!
After 35 yrs of audio systems and tens of thousands of dollars I am amazed at what I myself have come to and how much I enjoy from the minimalist system that I have now! (no preamp) CD direct! And also my power requirements from more than 400 watts/channel to 10 watts/channel and I still have the capacity to reach 100db plus at my chair.
And also I never in my wildest dreams would have thought I'd be listening to the Heritage line Klipsch Forte speakers (4-600$ used) that I have extensively modified to extract some of the most non horn sounding sound from a Klipsch that any of my close friends and I have ever heard easily rivaling ones costing thousands more.
As one person put it in this thread DIYing will give you the most and I'll bet your handy and you can do it with the support of this Forum easy!
SET12
After 35 yrs of audio systems and tens of thousands of dollars I am amazed at what I myself have come to and how much I enjoy from the minimalist system that I have now! (no preamp) CD direct! And also my power requirements from more than 400 watts/channel to 10 watts/channel and I still have the capacity to reach 100db plus at my chair.
And also I never in my wildest dreams would have thought I'd be listening to the Heritage line Klipsch Forte speakers (4-600$ used) that I have extensively modified to extract some of the most non horn sounding sound from a Klipsch that any of my close friends and I have ever heard easily rivaling ones costing thousands more.
As one person put it in this thread DIYing will give you the most and I'll bet your handy and you can do it with the support of this Forum easy!
SET12
dividebytube
Well-Known Member
At the $1000 price range you have plenty of options - both vintage and not. ARC, Conrad-Johnson, VTL, Quicksilver, Beard, Cary, etc. Depending on your speaker efficiency, you can also check out a good single ended amplifier. Cruise through Audiogon, Ebay, etc to get some idea of whats out there. Read up on reviews and get a feel for the used market in your price range. If you have any questions on a specific amp, I 'm sure someone here will pipe up.
if you're handy with a soldering iron, I would build a pair of new Dynaco Mark IIIs from dynakitparts.com - another possibility is to score a pair of these used and rebuild them.
if you're handy with a soldering iron, I would build a pair of new Dynaco Mark IIIs from dynakitparts.com - another possibility is to score a pair of these used and rebuild them.
mcgarick
Super Member
Thanks for all of your suggestions,
Maybe I should spend more time with some of the gear I have, I'm using large Speakerlab bookshelf speakers on stands with a B&W 600 sub, they give very good sound.
I do have some old BIC Venturi formula 5 horn monitors that sound good and are efficient like the klipsch, a T-amp I had drove them well. I thought the t-amp was too sterile though. but man, was it clear like a crystal stream.
These Bics are big and ugly, typical seventies boxes, very bad WAF factor, and I really don't like the looks of them either. so I don't know.
Any one know if the newer slimmer klipsch speakers are any good? like the large bookshelf ones?
I do own the Minimax power amp, its 8 watts per side and in many ways seem like much more, but not in bass punch, the info is all there because the sub picks up most of it, bit it doesn't push the Speakerlabs like I want.
Perhaps, what I need are good efficient speakers to try, and not more watts, I like larger bookshelf ones though.
Any suggestions, I'm all ears. Oh, I dont want to go with single driver speaker..me no like... Thanks!
Maybe I should spend more time with some of the gear I have, I'm using large Speakerlab bookshelf speakers on stands with a B&W 600 sub, they give very good sound.
I do have some old BIC Venturi formula 5 horn monitors that sound good and are efficient like the klipsch, a T-amp I had drove them well. I thought the t-amp was too sterile though. but man, was it clear like a crystal stream.
These Bics are big and ugly, typical seventies boxes, very bad WAF factor, and I really don't like the looks of them either. so I don't know.
Any one know if the newer slimmer klipsch speakers are any good? like the large bookshelf ones?
I do own the Minimax power amp, its 8 watts per side and in many ways seem like much more, but not in bass punch, the info is all there because the sub picks up most of it, bit it doesn't push the Speakerlabs like I want.
Perhaps, what I need are good efficient speakers to try, and not more watts, I like larger bookshelf ones though.
Any suggestions, I'm all ears. Oh, I dont want to go with single driver speaker..me no like... Thanks!
Rapidroy
Well-Known Member
I'm happy with my Sophia Music Baby
http://www.sophiaelectric.com/
I got it used at a good price and just made a cover for it so the dust bunnies don't get to it. No preamp is needed because it has a vol. control but it would be nice for multiple inputs. Im driving Sony bookshelf speakers that has an 88db 1m/1w but I'd like to try some Klipsch speakers with 95db 1m/1w.
Roy
http://www.sophiaelectric.com/
I got it used at a good price and just made a cover for it so the dust bunnies don't get to it. No preamp is needed because it has a vol. control but it would be nice for multiple inputs. Im driving Sony bookshelf speakers that has an 88db 1m/1w but I'd like to try some Klipsch speakers with 95db 1m/1w.
Roy
Attachments
IME, 80w/ch is already really expensive, for parts costs! Output transformers are the big killer- a good set of big outputs can cost a grand or more, if you really want 200w/ch!
I don't even know where to start for a 600w amp. Transformers are going to be the big killer. They'll be the size of a bowling ball, and weigh TWICE as much!
Not to mention, you'd need a push-pull driver stage, the size of a medium size power amp itself, to drive the 833s. Something like a pair of 6550s in triode mode or something like that...
If it were me, looking for that kind of power, I'd be tempted to use something like a 6-pack of 6KG6/EL509, 6LF6/20LF6/8950 or 6LW6 per channel, in parallel-push-pull screen-drive mode. That way, you'd have less than 1K B+ voltage (probably 600 volts would do it), and the output transformers would have "simple" impedance ratios (like 1.5K:8 ohms, or something like that). This would be a case where a gapped toroid might be a neat choice... since screen-drive uses so little bias current at idle, balance between sides would probably be much easier, making toroidal outputs practical...
Regards,
Gordon.
I built a Dynaco ST70 Clone (a kit from Mr. Bob Latino). It has an upgraded driver board, which greatly improves (understated) the sound over the original Dynacos and intially I drove it with a Sony Portable DVD player through the headphone out as the preamp. I then bought an older Yamaha SS Pre and I can say from my experience, using a tube amp with a SS Pre is better sound quality than with a SS amp and SS pre.
The Amp kit was around $700.00, but there are other companies out there offering it for under $600.00. I upgraded the tubes and after it was all said and done I had about 1K invested in the amp. Best amp I'ver ever owned, and I have owned a few, albiet all Solid State.
I recently got a tube preamp from Transcendent Sound, a kit also. Best preamp I have ever encountered, period. DEAD quiet. When I have my CD/DVD player selected I can turn the volume up all the way and I have to put my ear right up to the speaker to hear anything. When I have the phono selected I get a little hiss starting just past half way which I attribute to the phono cartridge.
The Preamp was $500.00 and after upgrading the tubes and Coupling Caps I now have about $750.00 in it. So for under 2K total I now have the best sounding amp/preamp combo I have ever owned, and when i take inflation into account, some of the least expensive HIGHEST QUALITY compenents I've ever owned.
You cannot put a price on the fun, staisfaction and knowledge gained by putting together/building your own equipment. You'll never go back to Solid State but you might develop "tweakitis" a common syptom of the audiophile bug......
Good luck in oyur audio pursuits.
The Amp kit was around $700.00, but there are other companies out there offering it for under $600.00. I upgraded the tubes and after it was all said and done I had about 1K invested in the amp. Best amp I'ver ever owned, and I have owned a few, albiet all Solid State.
I recently got a tube preamp from Transcendent Sound, a kit also. Best preamp I have ever encountered, period. DEAD quiet. When I have my CD/DVD player selected I can turn the volume up all the way and I have to put my ear right up to the speaker to hear anything. When I have the phono selected I get a little hiss starting just past half way which I attribute to the phono cartridge.
The Preamp was $500.00 and after upgrading the tubes and Coupling Caps I now have about $750.00 in it. So for under 2K total I now have the best sounding amp/preamp combo I have ever owned, and when i take inflation into account, some of the least expensive HIGHEST QUALITY compenents I've ever owned.
You cannot put a price on the fun, staisfaction and knowledge gained by putting together/building your own equipment. You'll never go back to Solid State but you might develop "tweakitis" a common syptom of the audiophile bug......
Good luck in oyur audio pursuits.
bricktop
Couch woofer
Check out some early tube PAs like bogen amps
They had a prevalent 200 watt PPPP (enough Ps?...8x 8417 tubes and 2 big honkin' trannys) mono amp that you could get a pair for stereo. Of course, that's usually much more than needed for a single speaker (excluding concerts and the like).
PakProtector
AK member
hey-Hey!!!,
The DIY road can do better than vintage, and waaaay better than new production. 20W from a pair of 807 is quite easy. In that same vein one could use nearly anything for a power final as long as it has more than 20W of plate dissipation and still remain Class A biased. This includes TV tubes like the $5 6CB5A and some of its cousins with 9-pin basing. Class A offers a minimum load on the PS; if it'll idle it will do full power too...
Taking the top three spots of importance, OPT quality, circuit design, and power supply. See Heyboer for the OPT, they've lots of good ones available, even some reconstructions of vintage designs from Peerless, Acrosound and Chicago to name a few.
There is no need to go with the nutsy parts like double-diode rectifiers like the GZ34. Damper diodes need two each, but they're more like $2 each instead of $80. There are equal opportunities avaialble for signal tubes to be had inexpensively too.
See the writings of our man Kegger for some interesting tube uses. Stay away from 12A_7 types due to their use in vintage designs( and thus use and demand ). You can do better...
That aside, an ugly Citation II or its OPT's can be had fairly inexpensively. Hell, there are lots of engieering samples on my shelf just waiting for a cause to unwind, clone and perhaps modify. The big Heathkit W6 Peerless 16431opt, several smaller Peerless 20-20 and 20-20 Plus, Chicago Super Range, UTC Linear Standard, and Thordarson Tru-Fidelity.
cheers,
Douglas
The DIY road can do better than vintage, and waaaay better than new production. 20W from a pair of 807 is quite easy. In that same vein one could use nearly anything for a power final as long as it has more than 20W of plate dissipation and still remain Class A biased. This includes TV tubes like the $5 6CB5A and some of its cousins with 9-pin basing. Class A offers a minimum load on the PS; if it'll idle it will do full power too...
Taking the top three spots of importance, OPT quality, circuit design, and power supply. See Heyboer for the OPT, they've lots of good ones available, even some reconstructions of vintage designs from Peerless, Acrosound and Chicago to name a few.
There is no need to go with the nutsy parts like double-diode rectifiers like the GZ34. Damper diodes need two each, but they're more like $2 each instead of $80. There are equal opportunities avaialble for signal tubes to be had inexpensively too.
See the writings of our man Kegger for some interesting tube uses. Stay away from 12A_7 types due to their use in vintage designs( and thus use and demand ). You can do better...
That aside, an ugly Citation II or its OPT's can be had fairly inexpensively. Hell, there are lots of engieering samples on my shelf just waiting for a cause to unwind, clone and perhaps modify. The big Heathkit W6 Peerless 16431opt, several smaller Peerless 20-20 and 20-20 Plus, Chicago Super Range, UTC Linear Standard, and Thordarson Tru-Fidelity.
cheers,
Douglas
WopOnTour
Hoarder Extraordinaire
HAY HAY!! Just who ya callin ugly?? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder baby, and I would much rather see this beautiful piece of chocolate covered audio goodness on my stand than almost ANY of that similarily priced Chinese stuff, with their heavy yet flimsy sounding OPTs, cold cathode back lighting, dancing eye tubes, LED bias gauges, and fibre optic appointed accents...
WOT
PS> To the OP given your budget I too would suggest either a decent restored vintage amp (Dynaco ST70, HK Citation II, Fisher SA1000, Lafayette KT550 or a late 70s Conrad Johnson MV75) OR if you have the skills and a bit of patience, perhaps one of the decent DIY kits out there like DIY HiFi's ELLA, Mapletree Stealth or Bottlehead Paramour mono-blocks, a Transcendent Sound T16 (OTL) or the various Dynaco kits from Triode Electronics. Most of these kits are pretty well thought out and far easier (for most people) than starting out with just a pair of decent output transformers and a schematic...
Attachments
PakProtector
AK member
HAY HAY!! Just who ya callin ugly?? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder baby, and I would much rather see this beautiful piece of chocolate covered audio goodness on my stand than almost ANY of that similarily priced Chinese stuff, with their heavy yet flimsy sounding OPTs, cold cathode back lighting, dancing eye tubes, LED bias gauges, and fibre optic appointed accents...
WOT
hey-hey!!!,
Wow...yours must still have some of the brown paint left on it. Mine was missing its base, and most of its paint...
It still wasn't as ugly as the one from Mpls that got dropped hard enough to tear an OPT loose and bend up the chassis( that still went for ~$260 ).I got mine to see if the OPT's were as good as the legends said they were. I rebuilt it; new caps, tubes and lots of resistors. It is indeed nice, and at some point I'll have its OPT's taken apart so they can be acquired from a reasonable shop( and I can get some tweaks done to the U-L tap location and qty ) at a good price.
I was given a circuit board from that amp. It is a nice green conformally coated piece with lables of where the parts should go, and value and wattage. I wish I had this when I did the first work...it would have been quite easy; Mills WW, 2W carbon film and 3W IRC metal film resistors along with some Solen polypropylene/tin caps.
cheers,
Douglas
WopOnTour
Hoarder Extraordinaire
LOL yea, I knew you had mentioned in a post somewhere that you had a few beater duece OPTs. I was just funnin wit ya.
Speaking of re-creating the CITII OPTs I heard somewhere that Dennis "Doc" Hoyer of "Audio Transformers Inc" out in Wisconson already had achieved this, but I've never really checked into it.
Apparently there are 2 distinct versions of the Citation II OPTs (with the 2nd design significantly superior) but I've never heard of a 100% sure-fire method to identify them. (see the attached copy of the notice from HK included in the 2nd design kits)
But in any case If you ever do attempt to get this done with your guy please let me know, I'd probably be in for at least a pair and maybe even a couple sets for DIY
Regards
WOT
Speaking of re-creating the CITII OPTs I heard somewhere that Dennis "Doc" Hoyer of "Audio Transformers Inc" out in Wisconson already had achieved this, but I've never really checked into it.
Apparently there are 2 distinct versions of the Citation II OPTs (with the 2nd design significantly superior) but I've never heard of a 100% sure-fire method to identify them. (see the attached copy of the notice from HK included in the 2nd design kits)
But in any case If you ever do attempt to get this done with your guy please let me know, I'd probably be in for at least a pair and maybe even a couple sets for DIY
Regards
WOT
Attachments
http://www.kta-hifi.net/data/opt.html suggests that the primary impedance differs slightly. A Vacuum Tube Valley page suggests that the ones with cloth around the output transformer leads are the earlier ones, ones with rubberized cloth are "middle era" ones, and those with a grommet are later ones. They then describe early ones as being somewhat inferior to later ones. Mine are middle-era, so I really have no idea what's inside.
beans
Got arth-a-ritis
McIntosh just came out with the MC2301 tube mono-block amp with 300W. I'm guessing they cost over $10,000 and of course you need 2 for stereo.
PakProtector
AK member
hey-Hey!!!,
No biggie on the funnin'...
Autran/Dennis Hoyer has indeed reverse engineered the Cit.II output. His pricing is not exactly reasonable compared to what a beater amp with two good OPT's would cost. Heyboer OTOH has far better pricing.
I acquired the Cit.II just so I could clone its OPT, and also got a Heathkit W6m with its Peerless 16431 which has the same primary load and power spec. I plan to measure both, and listen to both and then go ahead with cloning the better one. What I'd really like is a single to wreck...then I could sell the working and rebuilt amp...
The OPT on my Deuce are the later rubber grommet ones, and the amp has the small( and now working ) meter.
cheers,
Douglas