Pre-Amp / Pwr-Amp Jumpers

[Marko]

Silver plating would be more cost-effective, but I used to work in a jewelry store, and we weren't set up to plate in silver, but we were definitely set up to plate in rhodium. I think most jewelers are the same way.

And jewelers do favors for free, depending on how well they know you.

Edit: I just looked at the five year price chart on rhodium, and it has increased about 24x. Unbelievable. I worked as a bench jeweler about fifteen years ago, and the price of rhodium was nothing like it is now, obviously. We would sometimes plate a return customer's ring in rhodium for free. We also used to do some other minor work for free, that's the way small ......town jewelers survive.

Solid silver plating would be more cost-effective, but I don't know who does it. Sounds like you are set up for it,though.

Nowadays, the small independent Jeweler has been muscled out by the vast amount of chain store brands(Zales, Kay, etc...), and those types of retailers rarely have on premises skilled craftspeople, and since the retail per sq.ft. is so expensive to rent out, usually they save that floorspace for saleable mechandise, not tools with dirty and noisy equipment and chemicals. So if someone goes to one of those retailers, the sales guy/girl there will automatically be thinking a plating request needs to be sent out to a tradeshop, which of course, will charge a fee to the retailer, who will in turn desire to make a profit.

Yes, I'm setup for many different types of plating(+stripping, etc...), so it's very easy for me to do whatever I want there in that realm.

The thought comes to mind that it is easy to screw up(contaminate) a batch of rhodium solution, by plating something, or attempting to plate something outside the norm. Again, as you know, the stuff is usually reserved for plating White Gold whiter, so it looks like Platinum in the end. Fwiw, I've seen rhodium solution ruined from plating Silver. The underlying metals leach from the process, and Silver traces naturally wreck the Rhodium, and one has to toss it out.... Silver plating solution can be purchased from the same jewelry suppliers who sell Rhodium or Gold solution.

Besides, one of the reasons Silver plating would be preferred here, is that Silver is the best conductor anyways. Platinum(rhodium) sucks as a conductor, and pure Gold ain't so hot either. So, the cheaper plating solution happens to be superior for this application, and the goal of trying to achieve a cleaner signal pass.

Yeah, if people spend chunks of money at jewelry stores, the stores can tend to be more open to doing small favors(but not necessarily due to overhead).... but to walk in off the street cold to any jewelry store, and expect that business to solve one's problem, for free, is super unlikely.

Thanks for your response!...:yes:

cheers

 

[Will V.]

but to walk in off the street cold to any jewelry store, and expect that business to solve one's problem, for free, is super unlikely.

Yes, that's why I said "if you have a good relationship with a local jeweler," in my original post.

I still have a good relationship with the store where I used to work, and they still have a bench operation in back (though much smaller than when I worked there) and they do favors for me. They're not giving me cost on diamonds, mind you, but I was an employee, and I've been a loyal customer for about fifteen years.

Rhodium is actually a much better conductor than platinum, but silver and copper are still better.

The fact remains, I don't know where to get something plated with pure silver. You might clue us into your line of business, so we know what kind of shop to look for, to finish our homemade jumpers. :thmbsp:

 

[Marko]

Look in the area phone book under "jewelry repairs",...it's much more likely a full-service trade workshop will have Silver plating solution than a retailer.

Yup, for passing electricity, Rhodium is worse than pure Gold, and Gold is worse than Copper, and Copper is worse than Silver. The oxides on Copper impede signal pass.

Another way to go is to dip the homemade Copper jumpers in a Tarnex-type solution, rinse well and dry. Tarnex pretty much removes oxides on contact...stinks like rotten eggs using it<g>, but rinsing the jumpers makes the odor go away...it's cheap too.

 

[Will V.]

Mmm, there is no full-service tradeshop in this town, but I bet my old boss would know where I can get something plated in pure silver. He might even tell me for free.

I read online some people have trouble using Tarnex with copper.

 

[markthefixer]

Please don't jump on me too hard, but what about nickel plating or stainless ?

I got some nickel silver 1/8 inch rod that mikes out to 0.1264 +/- 0.0002

while the authentic Pioneer jumpers mike out at 0.1250 and I'm NOT kidding.

They look chrome plated? as there are corrosion spots starting to show on an otherwise bright finish on the back.

 

[Marko]

Copper is inherently a very very dirty metal. I recall Copper losing it's luster from repeated dips into Tarnex. I attibute that to the inherent dirty oxieds in the metal itself. Leaches the oxides out from appearances. It does remove the oxides though, just sometimes it attacks the burnished Copper surface, which is burnished or brightened from the process of the wire being drawn down thru polished drawplate holes.

...what other problems?

 

[Marko]

Neither Nickel or Chrome are good conductors.

Nickel Silver iirc, has little or no Silver in the blend, and can also be called, "German Silver"

Copper is way superior to these choices, and you can buy it by the running foot at Home Depot...just the bare wire...cheap

The idea for me is to improve the signal pass. Using pure Silver does the trick.

 

[Will V.]

Yeah, I'm convinced using pure silver plate over copper is the best, easiest route. Did you just buy 8 awg copper wire at HD? I don't have a saw, either.

 

[Marko]

Yes, the uninsulated 8ga Copper wire was on a giant spool, sold by the running foot...I think a foot long piece must yield 2 sets of jumpers if your waste is minimal. I do have a miniature metal saw/ One could use a small cutoff disc on a dremel, or nice flat-sided flush side-cutters. You still have to file/emery or shape the sharp ends. I took it a step further, and annealed the wire back to dead-soft condition before satin finishing everything, then Silver plated them. Definite signal pass improvements over the crap metal chrome-plated things we normally see everywhere.

 

[EchoWars]

There is absolutely, positively, not a damn thing wrong with the stock jumpers included on units that were shipped with them. Even the brass ones that I've made are working wonderfully years later, tarnish and all.

I'm impressed by the work that you have done, and the knowledge and skill you have employed in your quest to find superior replacements. This is a hobby, and improvements, real or imagined, are part of the game. I simply ask that you tone down the rhetoric a degree or two. Or start your own post in the 'Thinking out loud' forum, where subjects of a controversial and/or dubious nature may be freely discussed, such as the audible improvement of replacing 2" of wire in a receiver which contains miles of the stuff. T/Y

 

[Marko]

There is absolutely, positively, not a damn thing wrong with the stock jumpers included on units that were shipped with them. Even the brass ones that I've made are working wonderfully years later, tarnish and all.

I'm impressed by the work that you have done, and the knowledge and skill you have employed in your quest to find superior replacements. This is a hobby, and improvements, real or imagined, are part of the game. I simply ask that you tone down the rhetoric a degree or two. Or start your own post in the 'Thinking out loud' forum, where subjects of a controversial and/or dubious nature may be freely discussed, such as the audible improvement of replacing 2" of wire in a receiver which contains miles of the stuff. T/Y

Well, it does seem to be controversial to you, since you recommended Brass, as the metal of choice to be used as an interconnect. In fairness, there are indeed other viable metal choices out of which jumpers can be made from, inexpensively, out of better conducting metals than Brass. Copper(Home Depot)is cheap and available, and more malleable(easier) to manipulate into the needed form, and pure Silver, which is a cut above Copper inherently, but much more difficult to obtain in necessary form to use.

All these metals do indeed conduct electricity. In fact each metal (or alloy composite)has it's own inherent abilities and limitations in many ways, and sound quality is one of them.

If this didn't matter, then all the conductors in stereo gear would be made out of the cheapest metal, instead of using Copper. But it does matter.

I offer what I know in the world of metals, here at Audiokarma, to help my fellow man here learn. There was no intention whatsoever on my part to diminish your authority, or your perceived authority in the field of stereo. I totally respect all the efforts and hard work you have given others here, for free. Very noble indeed.

I just offered another approach, in depth, to help illuminate metallurgical facts and differences. I'm not playing any games, as you imply.

My posts here in this thread, have been "on topic", discussing Pre/Main jumpers.

One of the beautiful things about the give and take found here at Audiokarma, is that we all can learn many things from each other, as we share what we know, or have discovered..... nobody knows everything.

Bottom line is, factory chromed jumpers can be improved upon, thats all I was trying to point out. I thought I did a very fair job explaining the why's in detail, and depth...

You've made your point(a couple of times I think) that you feel it doesn't matter. Fine. Let it go then and I can do likewise.

I've done nothing wrong here, by participating in this thread in appropriate manner.

 

[atticusdog]

Hey fellas i have a sa9500II also how do you hook up an eq through the pre power inputs? i tried going the same way i have it hooked through tape loop but only get sound when turning eq switch to off(bottom right switch not power) thanks much

 

[Bigyank]

Hey fellas i have a sa9500II also how do you hook up an eq through the pre power inputs? i tried going the same way i have it hooked through tape loop but only get sound when turning eq switch to off(bottom right switch not power) thanks much

Preamp's main-out to main-in on the EQ and the EQ's main-out to the power amplifiers inputs. The EQ has to be powered on to work.

Yank

 

[EchoWars]

Well, it does seem to be controversial to you, since you recommended Brass, as the metal of choice to be used as an interconnect.
...<snip>

Nowhere did I ever say that brass was the metal of choice. The optimum would the the jumpers supplied by the manufacturer. If they are missing, I offered a quick and perfectly adequate method of manufacturing replacements, using easily found and locally available materials. That is the point where you got on your high-horse telling everyone how all those electrons were gonna get dizzy and disoriented after traveling though 2" of that horrid brass.

Pure copper and silver a better conductor than brass? Sure. Is it possible to measure the difference in resistance between a 2" length of brass and a 2" length of silver? Not with conventional instruments (would take a precision Micro-Ohmmeter to do the job). Does it matter to the signal which material it passes through? Not a bloody whit.

I don't even care what claims you make as to the superiority of the jumpers you manufacture. Knock yourself out. But suggesting that there is something inherently wrong with the stock jumpers, and they must be replaced with some concoction of your devising is foolish (in my view) and belongs in the TOL forum by definition.

 

[Retro Stereo]

fwiw again, I just picked up a Pioneer SA-9800 integrated amp. It's a wonderful piece. It came with the stock jumpers. I listened for a while that way. Then I redid the music after taking out the stock jumpers, and put in some pure silver ones. I could certainly tell the differences!... It's just one more thing that can be done to help the music pass by cleanly.

Marko,
Okay, this statement right here (above) would make a guy (me) think that this type of rhetoric belongs in the "Thinking Out Loud" forum. To say that your "home-made" jumpers sound better than the manufacturers stock jumpers is certainly controversial, wouldn't you agree?

The question is, should I move this thread to TOL? You will probably get more, and better feedback there, if I did. Let me know what you think.




Retro

 

[Marko]

Perceived controversies aside,

for those who want to make their own jumpers, any pipe or rod that has an Outside Diameter of 1/2" to bend the wire around, will give a very close correct curvature on the backside of the U-shape. Some metals used for wire barstock are very work-hardened(from the extrusion or drawplate reduction process, and are very stiff to bend, so, the harder the material of the 1/2" pipe/rod, the better. One can even clamp the pipe/rod in a vice to free up both hands which always makes things easier.

Annealing the Copper work-hardened wire deadsoft makes the stiffness go away, and the Copper becomes quite limp - easy to bend around just using one's fingers, if one is able to anneal, of course.

Just trying to help.

cheers!

 

[Rybeam]

Been running a Advent 300 receiver with shined up coat hanger jumpers for over two years using Realistic Minimus 7 and a 60 watt JBL sub, sound fine to me.

 

[Arkay]

Plenty of interesting stuff here, along with a touch of controversy. I'm sorely tempted to write another long treatise on this topic, but I'll resist the temptation and just ask...

Doesn't anyone cryo their jumpers, using liquid nitrogen?

[Sorry, couldn't resist...]

 

[JVintageSter]

Annealing the Copper work-hardened wire deadsoft makes the stiffness go away, and the Copper becomes quite limp - easy to bend around just using one's fingers, if one is able to anneal, of course.

I've done some plumbing work and annealed copper pipe at times with a blowtorch. Would the same technique work here? If so, here's how to do it:

Clamp a section of wire in a metal vise. (You could use a wooden vise as long as you protected the wood with some insulation or something, but do it at your own risk.)

Take a propane torch and heat the copper red hot. Let it cool, and the copper should be much softer.

Reading up on annealing, it sounds like you could immediately quench the copper in a bucket of water and it wouldn't hurt the annealing process, unlike iron-based metals.

 

[Marko]

Marko,
Okay, this statement right here (above) would make a guy (me) think that this type of rhetoric belongs in the "Thinking Out Loud" forum. To say that your "home-made" jumpers sound better than the manufacturers stock jumpers is certainly controversial, wouldn't you agree?

The question is, should I move this thread to TOL? You will probably get more, and better feedback there, if I did. Let me know what you think.

Retro

rhetoric? not really. not if one simply views the reality(fact) that pure silver is the very best conductor on earth of all the metals we know of. In scientific terms, there is no controversy about that fact.

The controversies stem from the extreme marketing hypes we see abound. The insane expense in this arena usually arise from the multiple subcontracting layers involved to not only made the product, but back even further in *refining* the product to various "higher purity level extremes. Then comes packaging, advertising, marketing, retail dealers, and it becomes obvious, something which could be inexpensive, becomes outrageously marked up.

Retro, as moderator, favoring neither EW or anyone else, you should feel free to independently decide what is the right thing to do with this thread.

You are a gentleman, sir, for having the class to ask the question, and I respect whatever you do, or don't do.